Nov 16, 2020 8:47:48 GMT
wocal
Brand New Budgie
Posts: 51
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Post by wocal on Nov 16, 2020 9:38:56 GMT
Hi, I'm new to this forum and budgie breeding for the most part. So, sorry if I'm posting in the wrong spot, my story/questions don't make sense, or anything else I might be doing wrong. That being said I need advice/help with some budgie breeding situations. So, for some context, I have a pair of budgies (Male (Chatty) & female (Henny) both 2 years old) that are currently having their first clutch. The hen has had 6 eggs and looks like She's gonna have the 7th. I planned on Taking these hatchlings around the 2 week mark to hand rear, but that's when I thought the hen would only have 3-4 eggs on her first clutch. So, I changed my plan taking every egg after the 4th and putting it in an automatic incubator to hand rear them myself. Some added background is the last couple years I have had a pair of cockatiels I've been breeding and hand rearing the babies from an incubator to take the toll off the parents. I also had a pair of budgies I bread a couple years ago which is where the male of this budgie pair came from. Now all that being said and you knowing my situation now these are my questions.
If I take the chicks from the hen at 2 weeks to hand feed with the rest of her clutch from the incubator how long do I wait before they have a second clutch. I have never had a second clutch with any pair. I've only ever done one clutch a year because I've never known the timing when to have a second clutch.
If I were to take the eggs as she was having them instead of the two week mark when would be the appropriate time to have the second clutch.
If I was the one taking care of all the budgies does it take less of a toll on the parents or is it the same toll and I'm just giving myself extra work?
Thank you for reading my post and answers to any of this or suggestions on my situation would be great. Thanks again.
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Post by yellowfacedviolet on Nov 16, 2020 16:46:46 GMT
Have you candled the eggs? It's unlikely they are all fertile. I'm not sure I understand these choices--to hand feed and to plan a second clutch.
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Post by Hezz on Nov 16, 2020 21:51:09 GMT
To have hand-tamed budgies you don't need to be removing them from the parents. In my opinion that is a bad idea, as the parents pass on some immunity and stimulate the chicks' immune systems. If your parents are reasonably tame, they will be okay with you handling the chicks in the nest, and is much less stressful for all budgies concerned.
Having one clutch of eggs is stressful enough on the hen's health; having two, one straight after the other is not recommended unless you are an experienced breeder yourself and have another pair brooding who can take on some of the load if it gets too much for the hen. It is much better for the hen to fully restore her calcium stores before looking to start another round of eggs.
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Nov 16, 2020 8:47:48 GMT
wocal
Brand New Budgie
Posts: 51
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Post by wocal on Nov 16, 2020 23:03:12 GMT
@ yellowfacedViolet I have candled all of them today and they are all fertile. I checked the hen for another egg and she didn't have anything in her and it's been two days, so I think she's done at 6. the plan was to take the burden off the hen so she doesn't have to take care of 6 babies or end up tossing any out.
@ hezz Thanks for your input. I heard about the immunity thing from a parrot breeding documentary before, but I haven't come across it yet. In my experience and I know this is anecdotal, but when I take them after the parents are done and handle them while growing up vs when I take them as an egg they are much more friendly. I also have a higher rate of keeping them alive myself so far. I had parakeets breed few years back and they threw an egg out and let the other ones die in the box and only kept one alive. That's what started me hand feeding in the first place. I also had cockatiels leave the box and not go back in. That's when I saved the eggs with the incubator. Also, I'm giving these birds away so, I wanted the new owners to have the same experience I have with my hand fed cockatiel who I raised from an egg. So, Here's my questions to you then if you have time to answer them. Have you had two clutches back to back? is back to back like immediately or is it like 18 days for the eggs and then another 3-4 weeks for what would make a bird a fledgling and then I give the box back so they could have another clutch. And the whole time I'm the one taking care of the babies so she can calcium and protein back up? Also, in your experience have you had budgies not take care of the babies? and what do you do when that happens? I feel like in this instance I'm the other broody hen taking the load off her. Thank you for taking the time out reply to me and thank you for all your knowledge. I really appreciate it.
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Oct 6, 2011 7:41:27 GMT
Marianne Marlow
Administrator
George, Daisy, Iris, Billy, Peter, Chipper, Dinku, Barney, Ayla and Rocky
Posts: 28,752
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Post by Marianne Marlow on Nov 16, 2020 23:04:28 GMT
Agree with everything Hezz said. Let the parents bring up their chicks, they have a far better chance of success at this.
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Post by mona on Nov 17, 2020 5:17:55 GMT
I don't have experience with breeding myself. But, I think unless the parents aren't ready to look after their kids, there shouldn't be any intervention. Taking away the eggs or the chicks would be anyways stressful for them.. I'm more empathetic towards them, so just my opinion.. nothing judgemental đ
As with humans, you need to have some gap for the female to have another kid, to be healthy herself and for the kid too, I guess the same goes for birdies too. It must take up a load of energy and nutrition. I would really let her rest & breathe and maybe breed another pair I have.
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Post by Morgan on Nov 17, 2020 8:08:02 GMT
I agree with Hezz and Marianne Marlow, but you also said that you have done this before and had trouble with bird parents just not being good parents before. Sometimes it is necessary to step in and help the babies or help out the parents, but there is a lot to consider. Have you bred from this particular pair before? If they are being good parents I personally would leave the chicks with their parents and co-parent at most, which is just helping the parents out by feeding the chicks twice a day starting at two-three weeks but otherwise letting the parents do the rest. This can potentially take some of the strain off the parents if they have a large clutch and are inexperienced. Usually even this is not necessary though and just handling the chicks from a very young age multiple times a day is enough to make them very tame and loving with humans. Both of these methods allows the chicks to develop the skills they need as birds to function and thrive in a flock or even with just one other bird. Even if they are solo birds, they are still birds and should be respected as such. Bearing this in mind, please please please do not clip their wings! This can actually lead to mental retardation of the babies if they do not learn to fly when they fledge. At this point in their lives is when their brains are forming almost every neurological connection they will need for the rest of their lives. Flight is an innate part of being a bird - their entire physiology evolved for the specific purpose of flight and it is extremely important to their physical and mental well-being. I can find sources for you about this if youâd like, or you can google to learn more. Ok, so If the parents are known to be lousy - First off, they may just be young and inexperienced and need practice (youâve done this before so Iâm assuming they are of a proper age at the least), especially if this is only their second time breeding in their lifetimes, for example. But letâs say they are known to be lousy and then you also notice that they are being lousy parents yet again this time around. You may also want to consider not breeding this pair, or whichever individual is being a bad parent, first-off, because they might pass this bad trait onto their offspring. But letâs say they already have chicks and are being lousy parents (not feeding them or actually attacking them), and you really want to save the babies because, well we never like seeing baby anythingâs die, especially if we can do something about it - although that is sadly most common in nature. In this case I would take the chicks three weeks (individually as each comes of age) if possible, but two or earlier only if really necessary for the chicksâ well being. The reasoning is that (from external sources, such as cutelittlebirdiesaviary as one example off the top of my head) taking chicks at two weeks vs three weeks should not affect friendliness, although taking them later than three weeks might so that is the cutoff. Two week old chicks have less feather and are more delicate. They are also harder to hand feed (but you have experience with this) due to size, though three week old chicks may experience a little more stress when converting to hand feeding, so that one is up in the air if you know what you are doing. Also, to answer your question about taking stress off the parents in general - would you be less stressed if someone, or some giant creature, took off with your own children? Even if you donât have any, just imagine it. Itâll be bad enough giving the babies away after theyâve fledged, but that is a bit more natural as to what would happen in nature at least. Of course it may be less stressful if at least mom is very bonded with you, but proceed with caution here. If mom isnât being a bad mom you wonât be saving her any stress by interfering. If sheâs really having a hard time with too many babies, /maybe/ taking the oldest might help her out, but just helping her feed them and leaving them with her would be kinder. Parrots are very intelligent and social animals that form close bonds with their flock, mates, and of course their children. From a biological standpoint, producing eggs is very energetically expensive and a huge âinvestmentâ is made by mom to do so. If sheâs not kicking a chick out herself sheâs also investing her time and energy into caring for it and is definitely attached and would not welcome having her chick taken from her prematurely. Now, about taking eggs to incubate... well I canât really recommend this because of two things. One, mom may just try to replace them again immediately which is very bad for her health (explained later), unless of course she kicks them herself and you /have/ to intervene. Two, the first few feedings that mom gives the chicks gives them their entire immune system, just like a human motherâs first milk. I would really only do this in an emergency, but experienced breeders usually have more than one pair breeding at a time so they can foster eggs out to another hen. Youâve done this successfully before though too, so totally up to you, but thatâs my stance. Okay, so to answer some more of your other general questions, once your hen has laid, as long as conditions are still right (daylight hours, plenty of food, etc) usually she will want to start a second clutch immediately after the first one is fully weaned, but sometimes even when the youngest is still only three weeks and dad should still be caring for it. If she is this sort and is left with the father and chicks and the chicks are still in the nest box of course, she may try to kill the chicks left in the nest from her first clutch in order to start a second. In this case she must be removed and could be paired with another cock if you wanted another clutch. However, it isnât recommended to let her have a second clutch unless you are prepared to give calcium by injection in the case of egg-binding. Usually an amateur breeder should want to stop her from laying a second clutch for her own well-being, unless working with an experienced breeder. Hereâs why: A hen mobilizes up to 45% of itâs own calcium *from itâs own bones* in order to lay an egg! They need a lot of calcium before, during, and after laying a clutch in order to achieve this, basically a miracle of nature. A hen depleted in calcium is much more prone to egg-binding and even bone fractures of their own bones - legs, wings, etc. If you do insist on having a second clutch, please buy at least some liquid quick-absorb calcium such as CalciBoost (can be found online at allbirdproducts.com), and better yet, also contact a few breeders in your area and see if they will coach you and maybe also teach you how to tube feed, give injections, etc. Everyone has to start somewhere, but you may as well gain as much knowledge and experience as possible first. So just as an FYI and disclaimer on my part: I donât breed but I have read extensively in case I want to in the future. I have a BS in wildlife conservation and have done blood draws and given injections, but only to larger birds (geese and ducks) myself in lab. I studied with an emphasis on wild birds, though not necessarily parrots, and since keeping them as pets I have learned so much more about their real individual needs to be happy and healthy, especially in the artificial environment we provide. They are not domesticated pets, at best tame, and innately wild. In fact, birds are fantastic for wildlife research /because/ they retain their wildness even in captivity. I would not say even I have enough experience yet to start breeding responsibly, but I am in contact with two breeders, one who has agreed to help me out. Before covid I was accepted to intern at the CA Wildlife Center to learn how to do such things as tube feeding, drawing blood, giving injections, and setting fractures, etc. but it was cancelled. I do plan on interning when covid is manageable and itâs safer. So I hope this was helpful, and please do keep asking questions!
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Nov 16, 2020 8:47:48 GMT
wocal
Brand New Budgie
Posts: 51
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Post by wocal on Nov 17, 2020 11:10:38 GMT
Morgan Thank you very much for that very well written reply. First I'll start with, I understand your concerns with the hand feeding and intervening. The more I ask these questions and research the more I see there's not a whole lot of people who like seeing it happen unless necessary. I understand keeping birds birds and not wanting to breed bad traits, and when I started breeding a few years back I felt the same way. So, to explain myself of why I want to do it in general was because of the bad parenting thing, but mostly because I hated seeing those birds or eggs that could have made it not make it because I wasn't experienced in hand feeding, brooding, incubating, diet ect. Like I'm hand feeding a couple of tiels right now babies about 12 days old, but I have been since they were day 5 and 3. I thought the parents would be able to handle it. But somewhere around egg 5 the mom was egg bound and I didn't catch it because she was acting normal at first and still sitting on the eggs and because she had 4 eggs I thought that she was done. She's not too friendly, so I never looked under her to see if she was having problems I just dropped the food off to her and got out of their way. But I noticed she was breathing hard and I've had an egg bound scare with another pair before and took them to the vet to make sure nothing happened. This time I couldn't get a vet it was 9pm and it was life or death at this point. So, I youtube'd it and got the eggs out of her, put her in a brooder to make sure she was okay and left the dad take care of the eggs. He hatched them and fed the two that made it. The others were crushed in the box at some point out of the 4 she laid, but it took a toll on the dad you could tell because he had to feed himself and the babies and be up the whole time while his mate was recovering. (Which she's good now they're back in the same cage enjoying each other company) so, I took the babies. Tansitioned them from the diet and started hand feeding them and have them in a homemade brooder. If I didn't act they'd be dead. The dad on the day I took them was so worn out he didn't wanna be in the box anymore and just sat outside it while they were crying. So, I have researched, so that I can take care of a baby at any stage. And I have a couple more stories similar. So in my experience for some reason I'm put in the "it's necessary" position more than I want, so I just accepted it and started getting fairly decent at it. I study hours a day, read books, watch docs, and watch every source I can on YouTube, so I'm ready when things go down. I've never heard of the calcium percentage before which im very thankful for. I'll research it and learn how to give injections. I'm working on making my own calcium powder now to add to their fruits and veggies. So for the second clutch im thinking of giving her a month off and then left her resume. She'll have 4 chicks so I'll take two at at 3 weeks like you suggest and handle them while taking over the feeding. The others I'll just handle in the box, and the last two in the incubator I'll be in charge of from day 0. I wish I had a breeder around me that knew how to do this. I've talked to a few in my area which is northern California in Sacramento and in LA and they said what the people on here said, but maybe a bit more harsh. They have outdoor aviaries and they only breed birds to sell. So, what they told me was I was trying to breed pets, not birds and that although that was great it was more trouble than it was worth. That making a strong line that takes care of their babies themselves is what's important. They also said that they don't know how to hand feed or incubate or any of that, so they couldn't help me with any of that. But they did sell me some birds and set me up to go to the next bird expo near us when things open back up. So, no disrespect to them or anyone that thinks that way they just do things differently. I joined this forum in hopes of finding people who knew the answers to my questions or possibly thought similar, but I've only seen people in documentaries who felt similar. Like I watched this 80's doc on this European guy who was in the scene for Amazon's and had bred and hand raised every single variety and had a huge collection and in that documentary he goes over hand feeding and why creating a line of hand fed parents and then having generations of hand fed bird's who are use to people helps people have well-tempered pets. It also saves lives because birds are content only keeping one offspring alive a clutch because it means they were successful at maintaining their genes that's why they throw babies out of the best or kill their babies if they know they can't feed them. And with some of the parrots their endangered, so they couldn't afford to lose any. And then if you could help me with any of this research for this stuff you're experienced on especially the science behind it I would love that. I also don't clip wings. I like to let them fly for exercise. Sorry for giving you my life story, im just very passionate about being able to take care of birds from start to finish so, that I know I personally did everything I could to make sure they survived. Thanks for your time on reading this and hope to hear from you soon.
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Post by Morgan on Nov 17, 2020 18:57:08 GMT
No worries wocal - I think some of this stemmed from saying you were new at budgie breeding in general in your first post. I would not say that you are new at this at all, anymore But I appreciate your humility. You definitely have some experience, and a lot of it hands-on. I do think itâs important that the birds we breed have traits that not only make them good pets (outgoing, friendly, etc.) but also ensure that future generations still have certain healthy instincts such as being good parents and not having genetic abnormalities that would be important for the birdâs ability to survive in the wild - and for the ability of the offspring to continue to reproduce without further harm to the next line. Even if these birds are pets and will never be released into the wild, we still want to maintain genetically healthy populations as best we can. When it comes to endangered species, of course we are trying to save as many as possible - but the idea is that in a healthy population of individuals the ones that donât have the ability to survive on their own for whatever reason would not be good to purposely breed from and continue passing down those genes. If these birds are bred with otherwise healthy birds, the offspring may be slightly healthier than the weaker parent, but potentially not as healthy as the stronger parent. These traits get passed on through the generations and can make a population less healthy overall, over time. Especially when breeding for recessive color mutations. If you keep breeding back to a genetically healthy parent, we can strengthen the population too. The problem is that we are not importing wild birds from Australia into the USA, so our population especially has no new wild genetic material to work with. We have a big enough population of birds not to create a bottleneck effect (you can look this up, conservation term), but if we donât purposely choose only the healthiest individuals we could end up with more problems down the line. Genetics are tricky though, nothing is a guarantee of course! I would only suggest that in your own practice, if a parent is consistently just not a good parent (and you can help out however you see fit of course), maybe discontinue breeding with that parent and I wouldnât use itâs offspring either. This is why aviary breeders say what you are doing isnât worth the time and effort - because over time if you keep breeding birds that are bad parents you will have to step in more and more as their offspring will likely be even worse at it, etc. For someone with a lot of birds in an aviary it wouldnât be possible to do what you are doing without a team of workers! Also, aviary style breeding has itâs own drawbacks so donât take what they said too harshly. They definitely have their own way of looking at things too. Iâm not saying that just letting the weak ones die is what you should do, I would try to save them too! But I wouldnât breed further with any babies that were weak or any parents that gave me too much work to do myself! You are breeding pets for sure, which I do think is worthwhile and not a waste at all! But even when breeding pets you can choose the best parents possible. In addition to regulating your own practice as best you can, I would caution whoever buys your birds (if the parents were not capable in some way, or the baby itself was weak in some way), not to continue breeding that particular bird. And of course they may do it anyway, or have an oops clutch - so also caution them that if they were to breed that bird they should keep an extra close eye on it. The advantage to breeding for pets and handling them from a young age to be used to humans is that it then becomes much easier to handle and therefore take better care of this very tame bird if anything were to go wrong, during breeding or otherwise. I just want to reiterate though that you donât /have/ to take the babies away completely to raise a tame pet bird. I think your heart is in the right place though, and I do know that there are other breeders that think like you do, so donât think you are alone. You can look up Featherbelle aviary on Instagram for example, she just moved out here to California. She hand-feeds her babies from three weeks of age also, but she has been doing this a very long time and even imports normal, wild-type birds when she can from their origin country (not taking them from the wild though) in order to strengthen her lines. Maybe you can message or email her with some of your questions too. Oh, and thanks for not clipping their wings! <3 Your babies will already be mentally healthier than many pet birds just for that.
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Nov 16, 2020 8:47:48 GMT
wocal
Brand New Budgie
Posts: 51
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Post by wocal on Nov 17, 2020 20:33:35 GMT
Morgan Thanks again for all the info. I didn't even know you could import birds. I'll look her up. My experience is with tiels not budgies and I know every parrot species is different. So, I never wanna assume what works with one works with another. That's what I meant by new to breeding buddies. I've only bread them a couple times before and it didn't go great, so in my mind it's inexperienced. I'll keep in mind taking the bad parents out of breeding so they don't spread trait and I didn't know that breeding bidgies without having wild ones in the line weakens it. So, I'll research that. Thank you again for taking time out to write me on the topic and you've helped influence a lot of the things I'll be researching and doing with my flock
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Post by Hezz on Nov 18, 2020 2:35:03 GMT
While I haven't read through Morgan's posts in detail, I do agree with what I have read. I would like to add, though, if you have a bad pair of parents (usually the hen, but not always) I wouldn't be using these adults for breeding again, especially if you get a hen who eats eggs, kicks out eggs, or attacks or plucks the chicks. These seem to be traits that continue. Not sure if this has been mentioned either, but the optimum breeding age for budgie hens is between 2 and 3 years of age.
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Nov 16, 2020 8:47:48 GMT
wocal
Brand New Budgie
Posts: 51
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Post by wocal on Nov 18, 2020 8:32:04 GMT
Hezz My budgies are 2 years old. Although, I've seen a lot of people who breed at 1 year and bird farms breed at 6-7 months. I understand what You mean, I don't want the traits if for breeder birds, but I'm pretty sure I'm gonna hand feed and for pets, so I'll let who I give them to know the history (if any) of any problems with the parents. Idk if the parents I took eggs from are new parents, so I'll me monitoring them to make sure nothing happens.
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Post by mona on Nov 18, 2020 9:08:15 GMT
wocal When budgies aged less than 2 years are considered for breeding, they are too young to be responsible as a parent. That would be equivalent to a human girl in her teens being a mom. That results in everything that you had mentioned earlier - the kicking, the killing, etc. They themselves aren't mature enough to take care of themselves, add to it the unwanted kids.. if I humanize it, I would call it postpartum depression!
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Nov 16, 2020 8:47:48 GMT
wocal
Brand New Budgie
Posts: 51
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Post by wocal on Nov 18, 2020 17:53:02 GMT
Well, I've always bred at 2 years or 3. I'm just telling you what countless breeders tell me. It's all over YouTube and the breeders I spoken with in person, 1 told me they breed cocktails at 8-10 months and the one who breed tons of different birds and use to ship to the carribeans and a bunch more places before the virus breeds his anywhere from 9 months - to a year. Farms 100% have them have babies way too early, but I assume they can afford vets to make sure she's in good shape and everything before they waste money on her kicking out eggs. My egg kickers were 2-3 year's old, so in my experience I can't personally say and my sample size is too small to be sure, but I wait until that age because it's a lower probability they will egg bound and until recently I didn't know how to handle it, so the thought of that happening and losing babies and the hen terrified me. I've grown up with some strong willed perservering teen mom's who take good care of their kids, so I'm sure buddies must be the same. I just assume it's a higher chance of her not knowing what to do. I just think it must be different when you breed to feed your family. Must need a faster turn around especially when they sell to pet stores, have bird expos to be ready for, and ship out and in country.
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Post by Morgan on Nov 19, 2020 7:18:29 GMT
I canât speak for large scale breeders. I personally donât really like or respect how some of them operate, but to each their own I suppose... Except when it comes to the lives of living creatures that canât speak for or defend themselves, I have a hard time staying quiet about what I consider to be cruelty in some respects. When we are entirely responsible for and are in control of the well-being of another living, feeling creature, I think itâs important to truly have their best interests in mind at all times. Then again look at what weâve done to our planet! I think weâre getting better though...? Slowly... Breeding too young happens in nature, so maybe that is how some justify it. Some of it may just be misinformation. Everything I have read online says that breeding at 10 months [should only be done if you are experienced, but that at a year old is entirely acceptable, just that they are best bred at two years of age and no more than four. Although they technically can breed at six months, everything I have read says that is much too early. I couldnât imagine anyone breeding that early, much less admitting to it. Iâm a bit saddened to hear that happens... Anyway, I am glad you are trying to do this responsibly and are seeking knowledge. I bet your birdies will be well-off.
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