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Post by mona on Jan 21, 2021 9:32:04 GMT
I normally feed them the medicine water or food directly.. They are choosy about drinking water, but they drink droplets from the coriander stem..
Physically, there seems to be no problem with her. I have stopped all fresh food from now, to also check on their poop urine color. I recall I had posted in another previous thread that they had been sneezing on and off since a month.. and I couldn't find any reason back then.. Just checked for humidity or any allergies.. Maybe there was a problem since then..
One of the ointment vet has prescribed seems to be anti fungal which he has asked to apply on the cere.. I have not yet started with the ointment on the cere.. Confused whether I should or not.. Ordered organic virgin coconut oil though
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Post by mona on Jan 22, 2021 5:25:54 GMT
I was able to find a veterinary diagnostic center in another state (got the contact via a DNA lab for pets). They said they would need either of crop swab or poop sample.. keeping it for reference, just in case.. for myself and my mom. I looked up the vet whom I am consulting. He is an avian vet and I found multiple good reviews about him after a deep search on the internet. He has appeared on Ted Talks too and seems quite reputable. I just wonder why these contacts aren't easily available over the internet. I have found a couple of useful URLs, contacts, facebook accounts etc, which I will publish here under avian contact thread for anyone in India to use. Also, their poop seems better with clear urine and rest of the urates and green part in shape. I have added a parchment/butter paper beneath their sleeping place, as Morgan suggested. I couldn't find wax paper over here. I hope the parchment paper would work. They are still sneezing. I'm listing all the queries to ask during followup call
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Post by Morgan on Jan 22, 2021 20:22:30 GMT
Oh Iām so glad you have a good vet! Even if you canāt bring them in, that is very reassuring! Sounds like you are on top of it How is Cookie doing today?
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Post by mona on Jan 22, 2021 23:24:18 GMT
She seems visibly active and well. There has been no stain since then..
Just going with the flow for now, since it seems to work.. On a positive note, I found a lot of emergency contacts which otherwise I wouldn't have tried so hard to find... and that Cookie seems okay physically..
Just hoping nothing reappears after the medicine course.. š¤
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Post by tweetiepiesmom on Jan 22, 2021 23:53:42 GMT
Good luck - I hope it takes!
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Post by Morgan on Jan 24, 2021 6:40:13 GMT
So, on Instagram, a user had taken a photo of their budgie with a brown stain above the cere. I had messaged them to let them know it could be an early sign of respiratory infection and they thanked me and that was that. Forgot about it. I recently saw another post of their budgie though, and it looked like she still had some staining there, but it wasnāt as pronounced. So I messaged them again to see how she was doing and they said their vet had told them it was an early sign of respiratory illness that was probably caused by a vitamin deficiency. They said they were told to put vitamin drops in the water, and said the staining is going away. So I started reading more about vitamin deficiencies and respiratory illness and found a few comments about vitamin A deficiency and staining above the cere, and a lot more about vitamin deficiencies in general and all kinds of issues, including respiratory. Here are the links: be.chewy.com/all-about-bird-nares/āIf your bird has a vitamin A deficiency, which can change the cells in the nasal passages to make your pet more susceptible to infections, your vet probably will want to go over your birdās diet with you, Dr. Quesenberry says.ā āBirds can get infections in their nares from just about anything, such as bacteria in the environment, a vitamin A deficiency or fungus. A common cause for bacterial or fungal infections is a lack of fresh air, especially in the winter or summer when the heat or the A/C is on. The filters in both can get dirty, making it easier for fungal spores and other bacteria to get blown around and into bird nostrils.ā www.beautyofbirds.com/budgievitamins.htmlāThe most obvious sign of a vitamin A deficiency is a feather stain above the cere. The staining of the feathers above the nostrils reflects a discharge from the nostrils.ā Nothing directly from a vet here though. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7147455/āTreatment and Management Successful recovery of sinusitis requires aggressive therapy as failure of timely treatment may lead to life-threatening situation for the affected birds. Removal of the nidus of infection like foreign body is the first step. It substantially reduces the symptoms and suffering of the affected bird. Correction of nutritional deficiency like deficiency of zinc or vitamin A leading to hyperplasia of the epithelial lining needs to be corrected with proper supplementation.ā nilesanimalhospital.com/files/2012/05/Demystifying-Avian-Medicine.pdfā Vitamin A Check for vitamin supplementation, are vitamin A rich foods supplied? Vitamin A maintains the mucous membranes and epithelial surfaces Vitamin A deficiencies can lead to secondary infections, development of mucus, plaques, abscessation, etc. in the mouth A seed diet must be supplemented with vitamin A sources Pelleted diets are complete and do not need supplementation Vitamin A sources include: Red/orange vegetables such as carrots, squash, papaya, red peppers, sweet potatoes Dark green leafy vegetables such as broccoli leaves, spinachā So my own conclusion is that a vitamin A deficiency may go hand in hand with respiratory/sinus issues. Iām not concluding that this is the definite cause of staining above the cere, because honestly mona you feed them SO well on all kinds of foods that are probably high in carotenoids- which are the precursors to vitamin A, and probably on boiled egg too? Because the yolk contains actual vitamin A which does not need to be converted by the birdās body from the carotenoids in plants. From memory, plants do not produce actual vitamin A though, and the carotenoids can be difficult to convert to vitamin A. So perhaps there could still be a deficiency somehow? Wild budgies would also be eating tiny insects, so maybe they would get more from that? Anyway, I hope this helps even after the meds are finished <3 As an aside, Iāve also decided to start feeding a diet of at least 70% Harrisonās to my own birds from now on just to be safe. It does seem that almost every avian vet recommends it these days, and they do have the most experience treating illnesses in pet birds, so who am I to argue? š
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Post by mona on Jan 24, 2021 11:34:56 GMT
Thank you for taking out time to accumulate info from several places..
I feed them carrots, beet, bell peppers, spinach (once a week or once a fortnight - depending on the season and availability), brocolli and fresh herbs one herb once a week: coriander/cilantro, dill, mint.. a herbal tea once a week or fortnight.. fresh plants daily - from moong bean, brown/white chickpea, fenugreek, mustard/rye, wheatgrass, millet grasses, and any bird safe seed.. They get steam cooked moong beans, brown and white chickpea, quinoa, mixed millet.. They didn't like sweet potato much, but they ate a bit.. all other food are on experimental basis.. so not everyday..and we hardly get any other green leafy veggies at my place.. Had been giving ACV every alternate day in the overnight water..
I had given them egg while they were moulting.. I didn't give that on a regular basis.. right now, the sale of eggs and chicken is prohibited due to bird flu.. Will start that once a week or so after that..
I had been giving them the multivitamin once a fortnight..
The vet mentioned about zinc and vitamin deficiency both.. I did send him the photo of the multivitamin ingredients, the frequency I give that and shared the entire diet, environment and everything I could recall.. He didn't ask me to give multivitamin, but he gave a supplement containing zinc, phosphorus, magnesium, Vitamin D3 and calcium .. to be given for 10 days.. at this point of time, I'm not giving anything else on my own, apart from what the vet suggested. I have a followup tomorrow with the vet..I have prepared a list of all questions about what could have been wrong, the travel and future plan, their diet etc..will ask the vet tomorrow..
I don't think I'm seeing a brown big stain over Cookie's cere right now.. There's something very mild and extremely small on one side and I'm not able to see if that's a stain or it's not.. I might be trying to find something that's not there. I'll take a closeup pic and post it here as well
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Post by mona on Jan 24, 2021 11:39:18 GMT
This is yesterday's overnight poop for Cookie (Day 2 on meds): This is Breezie's poop: Cookie's poop after Day 1 on meds Same for breezie:(he didn't sleep at his regular place, where I had put a parchment paper Cookie - before medicine started Breezie before meds (I had thrown these in the bird room dustbin - so wasn't sure which one was from which bird, but breezie sleep at this place everyday There is a Hepa air purifier in their room which runs the entire day and I open the window once in a while for fresh air.. Change the newspaper below the grid twice a week and the plain papers above the grid daily..the perches and toys once a week with vinegar.. Wash their seed bowl twice a week (which I will change to wash daily instead) and their water bowl and any other fresh food dishes are properly washed everytime they get food.. I'll be more careful with the cleaning and food from now on. Cookie's today's image: It is difficult to focus the camera, as she constantly keeps running/flying away..
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Post by Morgan on Jan 24, 2021 20:24:10 GMT
I think you feed your birds better than most people! And definitely better than I do! Mine do get varied veggies daily too, but I havenāt been sprouting more than their seed mix for them. When I go grocery shopping (pretty much the only time I go out, except for wilderness hikes), I shop at a place that only sells in bulk so I only have to go once a month. So I canāt make a varied mix of different grains for them at the moment. Since I know I cannot possibly feed them even as well as you do, that is why I decided I should probably just use more Harrisonās to be safe, since they eat it anyway. My nearest avian vet is four hours away too, so Iād rather trust the pellets than my own feeling that they are getting the proper vitamins from their food. Iāve been having an internal dilemma about this for a while now, so actually Cookie has helped me just make a decision and feel much better about it. Thereās so much conflicting information online about all fresh vs pellets, vs a balanced diet of both - but every single avian vet statement I have come across recommends 70-75% Harrisonās (or other thigh quality pellets, being Lafaeberās, Higginās naturals - but contain dyes and/or sugar), or Roudybush, but it barely has actual food ingredients compared to Harrisonās). I just want to prevent anything from happening in the first place (as Iām sure everyone does), especially during Covid. But I hope you didnāt think I was critiquing how you feed your birds or meant you werenāt feeding enough of anything! Your diet is much more complete than mine I think, with maybe the exception of the egg - but you already acknowledged that of course, and with the bird flu that isnāt an option at the moment. So I guess my thought process is that āIf monaās birds could even possibly get sick on such an amazing diet, I better not chance anything, because Iām definitely not feeding mine as well as she is!ā So itās Harrisonās for me... even though I wish I could feed a 100% whole food diet with complete confidence in it. Maybe someday I could, after doing so much more research... I may as well go back for an MS in avian nutrition, with an emphasis on parrots at that point š
It is something I may actually be able to do and which I am newly considering... Anyway, it does look to me like Cookie is pretty much better now, and if not completely then very soon will be! So donāt worry, and a huge thumbs up to you for being so proactive in getting her vet care, even with being so busy and all the other difficulties of doing so. ā¤ļø I just wanted to share some info I had found, and maybe it will help anyone else who comes on to read about staining above the cere because their birdie has the same issue.
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Post by Hezz on Jan 24, 2021 22:44:16 GMT
Cookie is looking beautifully clean compared to that original photo, mona. Good work, and well done.
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Post by mona on Jan 25, 2021 3:55:21 GMT
Thank you everyone who has helped with the inputs here and I had definitely freaked out a lot! Have really missed up on sleep and sometimes lunch at odd hours, just thinking about their health. I tend to think the worse will happen, esp when I didn't have access to the labs and vet earlier.. She looks better and there is a visible change in their poop.. I have sent all the photos to the vet and have asked him for a short call over the phone for some queries.. I have been looking at temperature and humidity.. Weather is changing constantly.. Humidity levels have been 85%, 60%, 75% for past three days.. Temperature is fluctuating too for us..hot and cold all mixed up.. Hezz Thank you. An assurance from you means a lot! I guess I would still have to observe her for another week or 10 days to see nothing is returning back..if it wasn't just a supplement issue and something else. Morgan I didn't take anything the other way at all. Everyone is trying to help me over here & if there has been a mistake from my end, I have to recognize, accept & work on improving it.. Just wanted to be elaborate on the diet I give to them, for clarity. Pardon me please, if the above post sounded a bit rude or otherwise. Had been just in the recall & listing mode. You feed your birdies well too!! My hubby has an issue with Vitamin B absorption even though he eats a lot of eggs & non veg food, so has to take supplements for that.. Just wondering if that could be the case with birdies too..not all but some.. I think I have to be more cautious about cleaning their cage and room.. I'm very cautious with everything related to their food and utensils, but honestly not very cautious with cleaning maybe - not the same OCD levels - esp when I had been down with flu for 2 weeks, I didn't change the cage base liner below the grid for a week. But had been changing the white papers above the grid. If remotely that could have been the case..
Breezie lets me take a closeup pic in first attempt.. Cookie keeps running all the time š¤¦āāļø I guess there's a very light stain yesterday night.. Hardly visible without a photo..
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Post by Morgan on Jan 25, 2021 5:38:59 GMT
Aww I didnāt think your post was rude at all mona! I just wanted to clarify just in case, because I k ow how tone doesn't always translate well in writing, and I donāt always write as eloquently or even as concisely as I could on this forum š
I suppose I think too much about potentially offending someone accidentally, since I would hate to do so. I think itās acceptable to do a less thorough cleaning job when you are ill, since itās a short period anyway. And you still cleaned where it was important. I kinda doubt that was the issue, because they wouldnāt have contact with anything below the grate anyway. I mean, potentially maybe something could become airborne from them flapping their wings, but they also had paper between them and the grate itself, and then whatever was below. Donāt be too hard on yourself! You do a wonderful job taking care of your babies.
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Post by mona on Jan 25, 2021 8:04:04 GMT
Thank you everyone for putting up with my freaked out posts! š The vet told me not to worry too much, since they are active, eating, preening and playing.. He said the on and off sneezing since december is probably due to randomly changing weather and humidity. He said it's okay to resume all greens and soft food. Also said that there's no thumb of rule with multivitamin supplements.. Based on our judgment and diet, we can provide it as we feel the need.. The vet asked me to discontinue the antibiotics. And continue with calcimax supplement for another 6 days..
He said it's better to keep the birdies at least in separate cages at my mom's place , for first 10 days.. They are not going to get out of cage at her place.. Cookie is very aggressive with other birdies.. she does the tail pulling for mom's birdies too.. We'll see if we can keep my birdies on the first floor and hers on ground floor.. It would be troublesome for her to move up and down for birdies.. but she said it's better to leave birdies with her, since my sis would be at office all day and wouldn't be able to take care of them in case of health issues.. I'm going to prolong my stay at my home on the first floor with the birdies.. to avoid much interaction with my parents due to traveling and covid. I asked him about any precautions during travel. He asked me to call 2 to 3 days before travel and he'll let me know based on birdie poop or photos, if I need to take care of something or get something beforehand. I thought about downloading the magnifier app on the phone to take a closeup of cookie..
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Post by Morgan on Jan 25, 2021 8:19:02 GMT
She looks great! And your vet seems pretty wonderful too
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Post by mona on Jan 26, 2021 19:14:10 GMT
Cookie was definitely more active today.. She was shredding, apart from all her regular preening, eating, playing, chirping. Poop seems okay too. I have added a new stainless steel filter coffee small cup.. added a bit of millet spray in that to lure them.. she went straight to inspect the new alien mirror like item..
I'm thinking about moving water from cage base to mid or top of the cage..to avoid the dander, feather or seeds in water. Though I change it 2 to 3 times a day, still..
I think I saw a bit of brown stain on one side today morning, after yesterday's spray bath - might be new discharge or might be from the scratching of her above cere feathers before sleep (with a square wooden piece corner from the swing she sleeps on)- if the stain that was left over even after spray bath just spread.. I did compare all the old photos though to see if it's reducing.. keeping an eye on it..
I had to pack a lot of items from a cupboard in their room and it was a bit dusty for me too.. Still, their room has the purest air from all the rooms in the house.. due to the air purifier, cleaning and fresh air from the window. I have packed all items from their room, moved the boxes outside the room, will move the dresser and bedding too after 2 days and will lock that room for anyone from movers and packers on the day of relocation, to avoid disturbance from packing and also as a bird flu precaution. They won't be as careful as we are, plus they keep taking closeup photos of the birdies, scaring them!
I'm stressed out above moving them to the travel cage though, since they aren't trained for the same. I don't want to grab them! Tried moving Breezie out of the cage today while he was eating millet from my hand, but he instantly flew away.. Planning to put both cages facing each other and move food to their travel cage.. Going to do that 2 days before relocation to be able to pack their current cage & accessories & to provide them more time inside their current cage..
Fingers crossed about cage transfer & their health! š¤
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