Back to square one?

[ivresse]

I don't know how old my budgies are exactly. I was told, when I bought them, that they were babies, between 8 and 10 weeks old. But since uploading some photos here, I've been told at least one of them is an adult, and the other has experienced his first moult probably making him in that teenage stage.
I imagine/assume this is going to make them harder to tame than babies.

I've been reading and rereading all the different taming guides I can find. Most of them differ on how to approach it, but at the moment, I'm integrating two methods together where I put my hand up flat against the cage for about seven minutes, and for another seven minutes put my hand into the cage palm up as still as possible, moving around the cage very slowly so the birds can see it.
I talk the whole time, trying to let them know I'm no threat.

At first I thought things were going quite well.

I had one, Allegretto, of them hopping onto my hand for a few seconds and hopping off onto another perch a few times, it was hit-and-miss, but he was getting there. And the other, Nox, was getting slowly more confident and would put one claw on my hand and take it off. I guess he was testing the waters.

Then today we have had a bit of a disaster day.

Doing my normal routine (I try to do the fifteen minutes three times a day. In the morning, around lunch time and in the evening). During lunchtime training the cage door was open so my hand and arm could fit inside the cage. Nox made a break for it and then so did Allegretto.
I have the cage in my living room and whenever I'm doing taming and the like I keep the door closed so they can't go anywhere.

Nox didn't go very far, he flew onto my desk around the room and then back to the top of his cage and climbed back in. Fine.
Allegretto flew a few times around the room, grabbed the blinds and stayed there for a bit. I didn't want to panic him so stood in the centre of the room still, until he had calmed down a bit. I moved towards him, he took off again and fell behind a bookshelf and was trapped them for a little bit while I tried to get him out. He was getting pretty stressed as the bookshelf was really heavy so I grabbed a dark coloured towel and tried to throw it over him when I had the space to reach him. But I think the towel made it worse as he would burrow his way out from beneath it and further behind the book case.

All this time Nox is chirping for Allegretto, and Allegretto is chirping back, really high pitched and quite panicked, at least to my ears.

Eventually I was able to grab Allegretto in the towel and put him back in the cage. I keep the back of the cage covered, so I covered the sides and the front so Allegretto could calm down.
Once I took the front cover off, both he and Nox fled to the very back corner of the cage and just seemed to scream at me to go away.

I think what little progress I had made, and what little trust I had gained has now been broken and I'm worried they're just not going to react very well to my attempts at taming and talking to them.
I replaced the covers for now, just to give them some time, and I probably won't do the taming this evening.

Should I give it a rest for a few days? Or continue regardless of this event?

Also, neither of them seem particularly interested in millet. I have a little bit in my hand when I've had it in the cage, but neither Nox or Allegretto have so much as looked or pecked at it. They seem totally unimpressed.
I do also have some sprinkled on the botton of the cage and a ... reed? Line? Branch? of it pegged into the cage too, hoping they would sample it for themselves, but so far, nothing.
Is that normal?

[flook1e]

I'm a complete newbie to training myself so take what I say with a pinch of salt.

I've got medical training and have studied psychology and psychiatry and I'm trying to implement the theories of learning into budgie training.

Basically, from what I've read you have two budgies together which may make it harder to train them. They also have no interest in millet and its crucial that you have something that they really like. They probably don't know what it is - continue to leave some in the cage for them to investigate. My little budgie had no idea what it was initially but when he discovered it, it became brilliant at reinforcement.

Classical Conditioning - an unconditioned response (climbing on finger) with conditioned response (millet) - this will come once they understand what millet is.

My Alfie escaped today and he's not fluent with stepping up. I slowly followed him around the room until he was tired and eventually he jumped on my finger and I put him his cage. It hasn't affected our training thankfully

Good luck!

[lousette]

Oh I am sorry about your incident today. It is so stressful when these things happen, for us and the birdies. I have no advice, sorry, just want to say keep going. Keep talking to them, keep on being patient, and don't loose faith. Hope someone on here can help with some solid advice.

[ivresse]

Oh I know about the classical condition. Good behavior = treat and so on. My family have used it on all our dogs and its worked perfectly.

I had read that having two will mean they're more likely to bond with each other than with their owner, in truth, I wanted to buy one and see how I got on before embarking on any more. I'm not working at the moment, so I'm home basically all the time unless I go out with my family or shopping. And while I did explain this, the woman I bought the birds from said she didn't like to sell them on their own because they're such social/flock birds and being alone would make them depressed. Which makes sense to me.

I'm going to try them on some other things, maybe Spinach or other dark leaf greens which I have heard are quite popular.

Maybe I'm expecting too much from them. But i guess reading all the tutorials and things they say generally that if you keep with the taming they should at least be a bit further along than my two are at the moment. It's all generalisation and based off personal experience, of course.
I don't want to push them, or make them nervous of me either.
I mean, aside from the taming they seem pretty content. They sleep really well, eat really well. I've managed to catch them both drinking from the corner of my eye. They're talkative and active with each other.
Maybe they just don't like me. ^^;;

[ivresse]

May 22, 2013 12:27:45 GMT lousette said:

Oh I am sorry about your incident today. It is so stressful when these things happen, for us and the birdies. I have no advice, sorry, just want to say keep going. Keep talking to them, keep on being patient, and don't loose faith. Hope someone on here can help with some solid advice.

Aw thank you.
Yeah, I was really worried something had happened to him because for about half a minute after falling he didn't move or make a sound.
But since he's been back in his cage he's been flapping around and stretching so no wing damage.

I'm going to keep on trying. I will persevere. It just gets a little disheartening when you make progress and something then undoes your work.

[lousette]

May 22, 2013 12:35:34 GMT ivresse said:

May 22, 2013 12:27:45 GMT lousette said:

Oh I am sorry about your incident today. It is so stressful when these things happen, for us and the birdies. I have no advice, sorry, just want to say keep going. Keep talking to them, keep on being patient, and don't loose faith. Hope someone on here can help with some solid advice.

Aw thank you.
Yeah, I was really worried something had happened to him because for about half a minute after falling he didn't move or make a sound.
But since he's been back in his cage he's been flapping around and stretching so no wing damage.

I'm going to keep on trying. I will persevere. It just gets a little disheartening when you make progress and something then undoes your work.

I agree. When we got Hob it was one step forward and two steps back. At times I just thought why am I bothering, but he actually got quite tame in the end - took a good few months though. HOWEVER, it was only him, I can imagine it is very hard with two. 

So glad that your bud is okay and no wing damage. 

This might sound a bit silly, but sometimes at night when they are quiet before I cover the cage I would just sit with them, imagine that I am radiating loving energy and seeing it engulfing them (in my mind). I would just sit quiet for ages, softly tell them that I love them and imagine that I am bathing them in energy. I am a firm believer that animals respond to energy. I would often close my eyes, make sure I am calm and peaceful and just sit there while they are puffed up. I do this in the day too when they are calm and napping, I simply sit with them and tell them how much I love them.

Sorry if that sounds smoochy, but I am sure they feel the energy you radiate and that they take it in. Who knows, but mine seem to like it.

[mizloco]

Listen if you can get them on your finger your doing well. My two look at my finger and fly away. Luckily they have worked how to get back in the cage themselves.

[Deleted]

Munchy likes to be perverse and never learns anything when I reward him. He'll just pounce on me and run around trying to get the reward. And if I succeed in rewarding him sufficiently to teach him something and then don't reward him the behaviour just becomes extinct. I did a module on animal behaviour at uni which mentioned that infrequent rewarding slows the extinction of behaviour. Luckily Munchy has learnt that "Good boy" means he's done something good, so I try to say it every time and sound enthusiastic. It's hit and miss, but usually he'll step up. That only really works once they've learned though.

Keep trying with them! They'll learn you're not scary eventually. I had to catch Munchy a lot as a chick because of a feather problem, so we had a very poor relationship but we've gotten there eventually

Lousette, that sounds perfectly rational to me. I have some Pagan friends who taught me about energy flow, although I've not had much practice. It also explains why animals tend to react poorly when you're afraid

[ivresse]

May 22, 2013 13:07:48 GMT lousette said:

May 22, 2013 12:35:34 GMT ivresse said:

Aw thank you.
Yeah, I was really worried something had happened to him because for about half a minute after falling he didn't move or make a sound.
But since he's been back in his cage he's been flapping around and stretching so no wing damage.

I'm going to keep on trying. I will persevere. It just gets a little disheartening when you make progress and something then undoes your work.

I agree. When we got Hob it was one step forward and two steps back. At times I just thought why am I bothering, but he actually got quite tame in the end - took a good few months though. HOWEVER, it was only him, I can imagine it is very hard with two. 

So glad that your bud is okay and no wing damage. 

This might sound a bit silly, but sometimes at night when they are quiet before I cover the cage I would just sit with them, imagine that I am radiating loving energy and seeing it engulfing them (in my mind). I would just sit quiet for ages, softly tell them that I love them and imagine that I am bathing them in energy. I am a firm believer that animals respond to energy. I would often close my eyes, make sure I am calm and peaceful and just sit there while they are puffed up. I do this in the day too when they are calm and napping, I simply sit with them and tell them how much I love them.

Sorry if that sounds smoochy, but I am sure they feel the energy you radiate and that they take it in. Who knows, but mine seem to like it.

Doesn't sound silly to me.
I'm all for human emotion and feeling rubbing off on animals, the calmer you are, the calmer the animals are. Just like with animals who can tell if you're scared.

I always try to be calm and in a good frame of mind when I sit with Nox and Allegretto, hopefully it rubs off. :]

[ivresse]

May 22, 2013 17:33:05 GMT Ira said:

Munchy likes to be perverse and never learns anything when I reward him. He'll just pounce on me and run around trying to get the reward. And if I succeed in rewarding him sufficiently to teach him something and then don't reward him the behaviour just becomes extinct. I did a module on animal behaviour at uni which mentioned that infrequent rewarding slows the extinction of behaviour. Luckily Munchy has learnt that "Good boy" means he's done something good, so I try to say it every time and sound enthusiastic. It's hit and miss, but usually he'll step up. That only really works once they've learned though.

Keep trying with them! They'll learn you're not scary eventually. I had to catch Munchy a lot as a chick because of a feather problem, so we had a very poor relationship but we've gotten there eventually

Lousette, that sounds perfectly rational to me. I have some Pagan friends who taught me about energy flow, although I've not had much practice. It also explains why animals tend to react poorly when you're afraid

Because neither Nox or Allegretto seem particularly interested in the millet (though they found it today and have eaten a little bit) if they do anything positive, looking at my hand, hopping onto it, a claw going onto it etc. I ALWAYS tell them 'good boy' or 'good Nox'/'good Allegretto' (I suppose I'm hoping they will learn their names in time).
It's not the same as a reward, but its positive re-enforcement in its most basic method, until I find a treat they really like then it will have to do.

[Hezz]

A spray of millet. Now the guys have had a taste, they will soon be looking for more, I feel. Millet makes up a large proportion of budgie seed mixes, so they probably just haven't seen it in its raw form. Once they start making inroads into the spray, remove it and use it for training.

A bad experience always upsets the owner more than the bird, I feel. Remember they are going to pick up on the panic vibes you may well have been giving off. Personally, I wouldn't put my hand flat against the cage - a hand is a big thing and used for grabbing wee little budgies. I try to make my hand as small as possible and quite closed up with just the index finger out as a perch. If using millet hold a small piece of millet against your finger with your thumb.

This is my method for taming/training only, but it has worked for me every time. You may find it easier to work with them separately, if you have a second cage to put the other in. Otherwise finger, millet, soft voice, no distractions, and slowly follow whoever you target around the cage, keep your hand still if he doesn't move away, move slightly closer if he stays still and don't become frustrated or impatient. As soon as you start to feel this way, leave them - leave the room and de-stress. I have taken on two older budgies, at different times, who were not tame at all, but things were probably easier in the long term for me as I already had one or two who were tame. But while they were in quarantine and learning to step up, I was in the same situation as you are now. As Lousette mentioned, it can be one step forward and seemingly two steps back at times, but patience and persistence are the key here. And don't lose faith.

[ivresse]

I have set up a second cage where I've put Nox. There's a towel covering the side of Allegretto's cage so for now they can't distract each other.
Still very little interest in the millet but I'll keep on with it. Just the fingers and the millet.
Fingers crossed there will be some developments soon enough.

I also returned to the shop I bought them form to ask about their ages. The owner, who bought the birds from the breeder said they were between two and three months old.

[ivresse]

I'm sorry, I feel the need to gush!
Both Nox and Allegretto were just eating millet from my hand. Neither of them have done this before and I feel like its a really good step forward!
(I don't mind saying I got a little emotional/teary because I was so pleased and surprised). I think this is a step in the right direction, and I just needed to come and flail about it. *-*

[mizloco]

I'm so pleased for you...big step forward

[Hezz]

Great about them eating out of your hand, quite literally. By separating them I should have clarified that I meant while you were working with them - sometimes it does help. They don't have to live separately.

Sorry, but I still feel someone there, whether the owner or the breeder, is telling porkies. Or maybe they were 2-3 months old when brought to the shop but have been there just as long.