At a Loss: Diet Conversion

[rosebunting]

Hi all, I've come back for more of your wisdom! Especially because I am at my wit's end

To lay out some groundwork, as some of you know, I've had Arthur for 2 years so far, although we're not sure how old he actually is. But we can assume at least three years, possibly more. He has been a seed fiend since he showed up, and in part because we weren't super experienced and we weren't sure if he was going to make it, we didn't immediately start him on pellets. We had been trying to get him to eat vegetables, but he was terrified of them.

Flash forward to the beginning of August: he's been eating a portion of pellets every day along with his seed, although it is a decent distance from only 15% seed in his diet. We went for a follow up vet visit and his AST levels were high (we weren't told a numerical value) and that he was overweight and had gained 5 g since March. The vet urged us to decrease his seed consumption due to concerns for his liver and since he was eating some pellets, I made a calendar where the seed would decrease by 1/8 teaspoon and pellets would increase by 1/8 teaspoon every other day. It was going alright until the past week or so. He was not eating enough, we could tell by his poops, and he would act lethargic until he got any seed. He also would scrounge around the cage looking for seed and throw his food out of his bowl. He is on calorad and we recently started him on a milk thistle/lactulose mixture prescribed by the vet.

So because it became apparent that he was evidently starving himself (and not just playing us), we've had to go back to the 50/50 ratio. I'm honestly at such a loss of what to do. I've tried so many things to convert him to pellets. We tried mash with the ground pellets, a gradual change out, I even briefly tried having him cut cold turkey. In addition to the revert of the diet being poor for him nutritionally, he also is now much less interested in millet, and thus does not want to take his milk thistle mixture and is also not interested in trying to bond with me.

The only current plan I have now is to try and reintroduce vegetables to him and hope he will take to them this time. From previous attempts to pellet conversion, I've noticed he seems to dislike wet textures, but unfortunately, that is unavoidable for eating veggies. This week is adventures in spinach.

And I'm sorry this is so long and moody! I didn't want it to be, but I guess my true feelings (that I just hate that I can't figure out how to provide him with adequate nutrition) came out, haha

Does anyone have any suggestions? I feel like I've read everything and I have no idea where to turn next.

[Loz]

With leafy veggies, it is my experience that the stems are of greater interest to my budgies than the leaves. The exception to this is mint leaves, which my guys love.

Have you tried broccoli florets? These are a big favourite.

[rosebunting]

Sept 5, 2022 19:33:45 GMT @loz said:

With leafy veggies, it is my experience that the stems are of greater interest to my budgies than the leaves. The exception to this is mint leaves, which my guys love.

Have you tried broccoli florets? These are a big favourite.

Ok, I'll definitely keep that in mind, I am going to be preparing the spinach in different ways to try and give him some options, and I will definitely make sure to offer the stems

And I did a while ago, but not recently. I will certainly be trying them again. The last stretch of time I offered them, he went on the opposite side of the cage, poor little buddy was scared!

[Loz]

My guys were very suspicious of veggies for a long time.
For me, it was a question of making the veggies available and allowing the budgies to become curious and to just try them. There's no timetable, it takes as long as it takes.

Sometimes my guys want fresh veg, sometimes they seem to like veg that has dried out a bit. It's odd.

[tweetiepiesmom]

I agree that they like stems better than leaves. When you give him spinach, make sure it has some stem attached. Can you buy wheat grass at the grocer's? That was one thing my guys took to right away. Look for it in the produce section. Many people use it for juicing. Get some untreated plain paper ribbon. Cut off the grass blades and tie them together with ribbon and pin it to his cage.

15% seeds seems low, most recommend 25%. Look for seed mixtures low in high fat seeds (groats, for instance). Have you tried giving him sprouts? You can grow sprouts or get them from the grocery store. In the US it is best to buy organic because they will be free of mold.
Good luck!

[Ira]

I got my lot onto chopped vegetables by introducing cooked grains and then adding veggies in with them from there. That is a rather damp food though, so I'm not sure if he'd like it.

My lot only have pellets as about 1/4-1/3 of their dry food in a day (depending on whether they get a nutriberry), but they each have:
1/4 tsp pellets
1/2 tsp dry food mix (seeds: including canary, mixed millets, flaxseed, hemp seed, and milk thistle seeds; and dried herbs and vegetables)
1 nutriberry
1/2 tsp chopped vegetables (this is also where I sneak any needed supplements)
And we put out pieces of veg but a lot of these get ignored or merely played with. Broccoli is a favourite for shredding here, and pepper tops are also enjoyed for pulling the seeds off of.

[Hezz]

If he doesn’t like things that are moist, I would try to get some of his seeds growing and try him with the greens from these first. Did you ever try him with sprouts?

Seeding grass heads make up the majority of my budgies’ diet - at least half - and they don’t need to be wet. I’d also look at getting him a finch seed mix rather than a budgie one as they are usually much lighter in the fatty seeds than the other.

It’s much harder converting a single budgie’s diet than a group, even a group of two as there becomes the “I want what you have” scenario, the fear of missing out, that can be used to your advantage.

[rosebunting]

Well, Spinach Week (stems and all) has begun! He is less than pleased about Spinach Week tho, haha (yesterday he hid behind his favorite toy as he glared at the spinach in the corner of the cage, but today we got a mini win, he ate off of a piece of spinach! No spinach eaten, haha)

tweetiepiesmom I haven't seen any wheat grass in the grocery store, but I will definitely look next time I'm there. Worst case scenario, I can make a special trip into the city

Also, I will definitely look into different seed mixes, especially the finch mixes! Also, I'm going to get him some bird bread mix because I'm hoping he might take to that. I never tried it before because frankly I thought that the slow weaning method would work better, but now I'm back to trying anything, haha.

And regarding sprouts, I've been thinking about trying him with them, but to be honest, I'm not sure where to start. Can I sprout seeds directly from his seed mix? I've heard some horror stories about sprouts in general, so I am rather nervous about starting; I'm worried that I might do something wrong and make him sick.

[tweetiepiesmom]

Since you are in the US, I've had good luck with "Sprout People", Lil Bird Mix and I use their Easy Sprout System (its cheaper on Amazon). They have videos which show how to do it. Very simple.

sproutpeople.org/bird-seed-sprouting-kit/

Their seeds for sprouting are very high quality. You can sprout the seeds they eat but you need to rinse several times to get any coatings off. Also, not all of the seeds will sprout depending on their age. If the seeds have pellets mixed in, those will turn to mush. If you need help, just ask. A few of us sprout for our birds.

[rosebunting]

It has been ordered! I went with your recommendation tweetiepiesmom and hopefully it will come in a week or two. I've heard that seed junkies sometimes take better to just germinated seeds, do you know if the seeds in the the Lil Bird Mix need to be sprouted for a set amount of days or if they can be fed once they are in the early stages of sprouting/germination?

And sorry, one more question about sprouts, can you rinse them once with food grade white vinegar before giving to your budgie? I'm very worried about any accidental growth or bacteria, and I think that rinsing them right before giving them to him might alleviate some of my fears, haha

Also: he ate out of the same bowl as grated spinach today! It was mixed with seed and pellets, so I don't think he actually ate any of the spinach, but considering that his previous responses were to avoid the bowl completely, I'm considering it a success. Hopefully it will get him at least a little more comfortable with wet textures. Tomorrow I'm going to try putting less seed in the bowl and see if he'll still go for it!

Plus, the bird bread mix I ordered is coming tomorrow, so hopefully I can get that baked for him this weekend. The directions for the bread indicate that it needs 1 TBS of "high quality organic vegetable oil" or red palm oil. I ordered some organic red palm oil, but it is not supposed to come until Monday, and none of the stores nearby seem to carry it (one downside to living in a rural area). Does anyone have any insight for what (vegetable) oils are suitable for budgies (when making bird bread at least)?

Searching organic vegetable oil at my local store comes up with this, but apparently the only thing in it is soybean oil? As you can probably tell, I am very confused, haha

[tweetiepiesmom]

Yes, you can feed him the seeds once they start to germinate. Rinsing with food grade white vinegar is fine just rinse thoroughly with water afterwards and store in the refrigerator. Do any stores near you carry Bragg's organic apple cider vinegar? An organic apple cider vinegar would be better. Don't try to sprout too much at once. I usually sprout about 2 Tbl. Before you start to germinate, rinse with the vinegar, followed by several water rinses. That will help prevent mold growth during germination.

Now that he has nibbled at the spinach, get some organic baby spinach leaves and peg them to the cage bars. He might really like that.

Until the red palm oil comes, good quality corn oil or olive oil will be fine. When you give him the birdie bread, break it up into crumbs - he'll more like nibble that rather than a chunk of the bread.

[Ira]

Sept 9, 2022 3:31:15 GMT rosebunting said:

It has been ordered! I went with your recommendation tweetiepiesmom and hopefully it will come in a week or two. I've heard that seed junkies sometimes take better to just germinated seeds, do you know if the seeds in the the Lil Bird Mix need to be sprouted for a set amount of days or if they can be fed once they are in the early stages of sprouting/germination?

And sorry, one more question about sprouts, can you rinse them once with food grade white vinegar before giving to your budgie? I'm very worried about any accidental growth or bacteria, and I think that rinsing them right before giving them to him might alleviate some of my fears, haha

Also: he ate out of the same bowl as grated spinach today! It was mixed with seed and pellets, so I don't think he actually ate any of the spinach, but considering that his previous responses were to avoid the bowl completely, I'm considering it a success. Hopefully it will get him at least a little more comfortable with wet textures. Tomorrow I'm going to try putting less seed in the bowl and see if he'll still go for it!

Plus, the bird bread mix I ordered is coming tomorrow, so hopefully I can get that baked for him this weekend. The directions for the bread indicate that it needs 1 TBS of "high quality organic vegetable oil" or red palm oil. I ordered some organic red palm oil, but it is not supposed to come until Monday, and none of the stores nearby seem to carry it (one downside to living in a rural area). Does anyone have any insight for what (vegetable) oils are suitable for budgies (when making bird bread at least)?

Searching organic vegetable oil at my local store comes up with this, but apparently the only thing in it is soybean oil? As you can probably tell, I am very confused, haha

Yay! All progress is good progress.

Red palm oil is good because of its carotenoid content, if I remember correctly. I use a part red palm oil. Be warned, it will probably discolour his droppings. No, wait, that's when I use it to scramble eggs. It didn't do that in the birdy bread.
I'm not sure what other oils are definitely okay.

Are you using the bread to introduce pellets? I saw a good video about mixing decreasing amounts of seed into portions of the bread mix to get them first eating the bread and then pellets that you've included in with it.
You can mix in veggies too. Not sure which you're going for, sorry.

[rosebunting]

Ira and tweetiepiesmom well, I ended up waiting for the red palm oil anyway (I figured it would be better to just be consistent). I will have to check re: the organic apple cider vinegar. What is the benefit to apple cider vinegar over white vinegar? I've seen it mentioned many times but not actually explained

And I am trying to use it for pellets at first, so I would love that video if you could link it! The current plan is using it in hopes that he'll eat the pellets, but I'll take anything I can get, haha

[tweetiepiesmom]

Organic apple cider vinegar is a 'food', good for the tummy, helps digestion and keeps yeast growth down. When used in sprouting, it kills any mold spores. White vinegar is more like a 'chemical'. Most varieties in the US are a by-product of other non-food chemical processes and aren't good to be consumed. It is good for cleaning your countertops in the kitchen and bathroom because it does kill many bacteria and molds. Most people buy the Braggs organic apple cider vinegar. Shake well before using because the sediment in the bottom is good. If you have a Whole Food Market near you, their brand is also good. You can get it on Amazon also.

[Ira]

I found it. It was this one:

I don't know how well it will work but it's worth a try.