May 16, 2024 17:46:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2012 15:06:46 GMT
Munchy is now coming along nicely. He will now step up nearly every time I ask when he is inside his cage, although sometimes he tries to escape up the bars but if I follow him then he will step on. He's also starting to get the hang of waiting until I say 'down' before he gets off, although this needs a lot of work as he will only stay if I keep my hand still, if I try to move it down to take him out of the cage he will hop off (possibly because I had to do this the first few times when I was saying 'down' so that I could show him that down meant he had to get off ^^). He won't step up whilst outside his cage, but after seeing Moogie's thread about Elfie I might be able to use his little perch stand thing to do that. He stepped up off of it the other day but I think that was a fluke because he's just flown off of it today. So, in between practising up and down with him I'm going to offer treats from my hands (because he will happily hop up when I'm holding millet) to try to get him more used to them, and if I can pop him onto his perch from there and get my body between that and the cage I should be able to take him into the bathroom to practice, or I could take the whole thing in there but then he'll just land on the cage. Problem is if he flies off he'll go for my shoulder and I'll have to do the whole drop to the floor thing to stop him landing on me or I'll never get him to practice XD
Anyway, that'll all just take some patience and persistence (out tomorrow though so all my hard work will be ruined by Saturday for sure...). He's a pretty quick learner so it's just repeating things until he's fully learnt them and will do them every time. Might be better if I planned my day with regular times for practice. It doesn't help much when my grandparents keep expecting me to let him out in the living room, although I don't like him being in his cage all day either.
He'll happily come over to see us now and will give kisses, although sometimes mine are a little hard if he opens his beak too much. How hard do they kiss each other? He'll also jump onto my head to preen my hair and nearly flew onto granddad early. He flew towards him but then seemed to turn back because he wouldn't be on his cage any more.
How should I go about encouraging to come off of his cage? I don't mind him staying on it as we move it into the living room and snug as needed but it might encourage him to actually come and see us if he wasn't so tied to it. I'm going to be trying to lure him onto a table next to his cage sometime, so we'll see how that goes. And what sort of things should I do to try to earn more of his friendship, or will that likely just come with time? I think he likes my grandparents better because they don't bother him by trying to hand tame him and haven't given him a little push off of his perch to show him who's boss, but I don't mind that too much, I'm glad he likes them and they like him, it would just be nice to have a little more, and possibly more varied, interaction with him seeing as I'm the sort of person who likes to be able to spend time with a pet rather than just watch them and standing by his cage in the living room all afternoon is a little tiresome.
Things I likely need to do: Spend more time just sitting next to his cage (either in the snug or with the table and chair) and talking to him - I'm rubbish at talking so perhaps I should read a book.
Okay, that was a short list but it's because I was going to mention introducing him to my things and then thought about expanding that point. He doesn't seem too curious. He tends to be afraid of my things, so I started trying to introduce them to him a little. This could be easier if I get him used to coming onto the table first though, because there will be more room to place things. He did, however, eventually get over his initial nervousness about my phone and ate the millet I placed on top of it once he realised it wasn't about to wake up and eat him. If I could get him used to the table and then perhaps my laptop and maybe eventually show him that he can perch on the lid maybe he'll consider sitting on it when I have it on my lap.
He might always prefer sitting on his cage and playing with his toys rather than spending time just sitting with us but it doesn't hurt to at least try. He might find he likes it. It'll be easier to play with him on a flat surface like a table, too, so maybe even more friendship will build up over time. So glad that summer's coming up and, at the end of July anyway..., I'll have a lot more time to spend with him. It would be nice to have him stepping up and down consistently before I have to go away twice, though, because then he might still be doing it by the time I come back. Sadly I can't get anyone else to practice it with him because he bites everyone else ><
Anyway, I'd appreciate the help if anyone has any advice on how to teach him to step up outside of his cage or earn his trust and friendship ^^
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Oct 7, 2011 16:29:59 GMT
MattJ
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Puck
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Post by MattJ on May 17, 2012 17:40:29 GMT
For Puck when I want to get him to explore something new (like the sofa arm, or a dowl perch outside his cage) I'd get him to step up then put him down on the thing. He'd often fly away when getting close. I found that I could distract him with abit of millet some times, then put him down as he's still eating . With a perch they'll often step up on to it after a few tries, a flat surface is more difficult but a small twist of your finger to rotate them offwill often work. For stepping up outside the cage, if he gets how treats work, I'd put him on top of his cage and holding some millet between thumb and finger give him a couple of bites then take it away. Then hold the millet near the edge of the cage, once he has taken that do it again but hold it far enough out that he cant reach from his cage, then put your finger in front of the millet so he'll have to step on your hand to get it. Once he's on let him take 2-3 bites then put him back on the cage and repeat. Pretty soon you shouldn't need to hold the millet out and he should make the connection that just stepping on a held out finger will get him millet. Thats pretty much what I did with Puck. From there I progressed it so I was holding my hand further so he had to jump to it, then fly to it.
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May 16, 2024 17:46:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2012 18:02:17 GMT
Thanks Matt That's really helpful Munchy is currently exploring the windowsill, probably because I put the millet there a lot between offering him bits, and now he's found his reflection in the window. He's crazy about his reflection, so much so that I'm going to have to make something to cover up the shiny apple shaped part of his skewer so he'll eat the food instead of talking to himself. The first time he saw himself in the window even millet wouldn't distract him. He's taken a shine to my tablet pen, at least whilst he's on his cage, and has hopped onto it a few times although he flew straight off again. Yeah, he'll occasionally fly across the room to take millet from me. I think I'll have to hold the millet in my other hand because if I hold them in the same hand I offer for him to step onto, with the millet between my thumb and third finger and my index as a perch, he'll fly to my wrist and wander onto my thumb to eat it, completely missing the point of the exercise XD Bless him though, he's so funny. I'll keep working on it anyway, don't know whether to do it at the same time as working with him in the cage or afterwards.
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May 16, 2024 17:46:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2012 18:13:16 GMT
Also, another question.
Once you've taught them to do something and they're doing it consistently, do you have to still reward them for it every time, only occasionally, or can you stop rewarding them for it? I wouldn't want to stop rewarding prematurely but I don't want to stop at all if he'll stop doing the things he was getting rewards for because of it.
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May 16, 2024 17:46:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2012 19:15:19 GMT
Awwwww! Munchy is on the floor playing with his ball! And when he was on the windowsill my granddad called to him from the sofa and said 'Kiss Kenny' and he flew over and circled around my granddad's head looking for somewhere to pitch ^^
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Oct 7, 2011 16:29:59 GMT
MattJ
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Puck
Posts: 329
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Post by MattJ on May 17, 2012 21:01:53 GMT
Aww how sweet, Puck loves playing on the floor as well and it funny to watch, but is a mixed blessing as you always have to be careful, especially as he likes to play behind the door >_< Once Puck would consistently do something I'd usually stop treating him, mainly cause it would save me having to clear up the husks all the time I'd generally go back and have a refresher session of getting him to fly to me now and then as he'd start ignoring me after a while. I must say I'm pretty lack on doing the refreshers so 50% of the time he ignores me now hehe
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May 16, 2024 17:46:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2012 21:15:11 GMT
Yeah, whenever he used to accidentally land on the floor behind the door I'd have to go and chase him away from it before someone came in. Luckily everyone knew he was there. I'd put the millet on some newspaper down there to stop him just snacking on it but he ate some, so he might be more inclined to play on the floor in future. It saves me having to keep putting his ball on his cage XD
Okies, that sounds like a good idea. I always have Sundays free so I could easily do a refresher with him once a week. Sadly I'm out tomorrow, having a break from all the revision and stuff, so he'll probably be ignoring me again by Saturday, but one day I'm sure we'll get there. The main problem right now is that he keeps getting sleepy and settling down outside his cage, like tonight, and then because he won't get onto my hand I have to practically herd him back in, which is a pain and probably doesn't help our relationship. He was so sleepy tonight I probably could have picked him up as he didn't seem to notice my hand near him, but I didn't want to upset him like that. I should make my granddad do it, he seems to like granddad. I think I'm at the bottom of the pile when it comes to people in the family he likes XD
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Post by Hezz on May 18, 2012 0:57:26 GMT
Ira, you mentioned you had been going through Moogie's thread while she was working with Elfie. Keep following it. If you take it little steps at a time, you will find progress being made. I think to start with you were too impatient to see improvement from Munchy, but now he is starting to learn some manners and you are much happier. Follow Moogie and Elfie's thread - you know where you are up to with Munchy, you will know what the next step will be by following it, but it is important at this stage to make regular times to practise. Short sessions often are better than one long session, where everyone will get bored and fed-up. As for him landing on your arm and walking up to the millet, is that really a problem? I mean, you want him to step up to get his treat; does it matter where exactly he steps up to? A positive from that that I see is that he would bite your arm rather than your finger - much less hurty! It also means he is comfortable with your arm at least. I encourage my guys to hop onto my hand and walk up my arm onto my shoulder and come out of the cage that way. Just another way of interacting. Another thing - to get him away from the top of the cage, can you move the gym-thing off the top of the cage and relocate it somewhere else in the room, maybe closer to where you are? That way he may be enticed from the cage to the gym and back again, good flying practise, and if you put his millet on the gym it sounds like he is sure to check it out. Hope this helps.
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May 16, 2024 17:46:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 6:22:44 GMT
I know what you mean, Hezz. I think there were a few problems when I first got Munchy that didn't help. Firstly, I didn't have a clue what I was doing so I probably rushed him and then didn't train him as he just started stepping up, etc, anyway. I was having to do a lot of rushed revision for exams, too. I'm trying to do regular 5 minute sessions but so far the regular part hasn't happened. Now that Munchy's finally stopped biting me I feel a lot less worried about what he'll do in future and I have more time to spend working on our relationship, although it's annoying that I have to keep going away. He'll enjoy my first trip though because I won't be here but my grandparents will.
And, no Hezz, I don't have a problem with him landing on my arm. It's just that I'm trying to teach him to go home rather than have to struggle to herd him into the cage as I don't think that is a particularly nice way to be put to bed and it would be a little easier if he would hop onto my hand because I can put my hand more towards the door than trying to get him in off of my arm. I say 'home' every time I see him go in but I'm hardly ever near enough to reward him. Whether he jumps to my arm or my hand, I'm holding the millet at the end of my finger just to get him used to standing on it.
We can move it. He spent a lot of time on the windowsill last night so we put it there and he'd fly onto it. I'll give moving it closer a go because he does come near us on his many trips around the room and takes dives at his toys on the furniture but turns away before landing.
Thanks Hezz. I'll keep following Moogie's thread and see how Munchy goes.
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May 16, 2024 17:46:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2012 20:34:43 GMT
We seem to be making progress. Munchy happily jumps up whilst in his cage when I'm holding millet more often than before. I decided to keep going with showing the treat for at least a week before asking him to step up and only showing the reward afterwards.
He still doesn't like hands, especially outside of his cage, so we've probably had a setback today because I had to pick him up to put him to bed as he was falling asleep on the windowsill. I wish there was a way to convince him that I wasn't going to hurt him. I'm not sure if holding him and giving him treats would help or just make it worse. Not sure I want to risk it but if he won't go to bed himself then I need to find someway to show him that my hands aren't scary. Maybe in time, but any ideas?
I've been trying to play with him more and convince myself that he won't bite me for touching his toys. He didn't try to bite when I attempted to remove a feather from his beak. I've decided that I'm not going to care if he bites me. I shall attempt to tell him off and be done with it.
It seems that working on handtaming a budgie helps to bond most people and their birds. It seems to make Munchy like me less as he doesn't come over to see me as much now. He really likes my grandparents though, even though granddad has had to grab him a few times, so it's not all bad.
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Post by Hezz on May 22, 2012 1:07:15 GMT
They are all a little different, Ira, there is no telling how they are going to react to something you haven't tried, and there may well have been an episode in the past that really freaked him out regarding hands. If he is stepping up, instead of trying to get him so sit on your hand while he goes back into his cage, have you tried using a spare perch or piece of branch/dowel? If he will step up onto this without a problem, this may be your answer to having to catch him up every time he goes off to sleep out of the cage. A stick is easy enough to manouver him into the cage, I get the problem with him being on your arm - I misread your comment I think. This may help with his fear of hands, as you are unintentionally reinforcing his thinking that hands are scarey, even if he has never been hurt by you catching him. I may have asked this before, but is the door to the cage a little thing, not much bigger than your hand? Or is a larger opening with room to move? Many budgies have a problem going through the little doors they put on some to the smaller cages - it is too restricting for their sense of preservation, and they feel too vulnerable. If Munchy is flying off before you get him into the cage, this could be a reason. I make a point of catching my guys up every day or two and they are quite calm about it now, even my little feral Sparky. I think it makes the whole vet and medicine-giving process that much less stressful, but that would be counterproductive for you and Munchy's relationship. I certainly hope he stays healthy and needs no meds for a long time to come!
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May 16, 2024 17:46:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 6:24:59 GMT
Thanks Hezz Sadly he won't step up onto a stick either, although I'll keep trying with that, and if we try to gently chase him in, even with the stick, he normally flies off when he reaches the edge of the top of his cage. The door doesn't seem small, I can get both hands in and he'll often go in and out during the day to eat and will squeeze out a much smaller gap by running up my arm. I hope so too, Hezz. I could probably try that with Munchy (he seems a lot grumpy with me for trying to tame him anyway) but it would probably stress him out too much and would take around five minutes to catch him. Perhaps I should work on trying to touch him first? I'll work on finishing the step up training and once he's doing that consistently I could just try to touch him briefly with a finger and reward him if he lets me and work on it from there. I'm trying to get my hands close to him as he plays, too. He happily nibbled the back of one when I was covering a dirty window corner that he wanted to lick. Frankly I can see catching him being counter-productive to our relationship no matter when it happens, but being caught by granddad hasn't made Munchy like him any less, so perhaps I could give it a go for a couple of days and see what happens. Luckily last night, although my holding ended up clumsy, my catching of him went quite smoothly because he was lying next to the window so I could just surround him. I he was in the cage I'd have to chase him to the ground a throw a t-shirt over him if I wasn't trying with my hand.
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May 16, 2024 17:46:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 7:05:13 GMT
The good news is that his relationship with my hands and me doesn't seem any worse. I just sat next to his cage to eat my cereal and he jumped onto the bars next to me to investigate. He also pounced onto my hand when I offered a millet bud from it and stepped up onto my finger, that was close to him but not quite touching, when I asked and there was no reward in sight. He shows no fear when I place my hand in the cage although he occasionally stops playing to look at it.
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Post by Hezz on May 22, 2012 9:06:08 GMT
Oh, no Ira, I didn't intend you to read that I thought you should MAKE Munchy being used to being caught, and that is what it would be at this point. It would definitely be counter-productive with Munchy being the way he is. As for touching, most budgies don't really take to being touched, stroked, petted. Even my very tame, almot human, Bluey would only touch on HIS terms. He was quite happy to give kisses, and chat away, but sometimes he would accept a scratch around his cheek feathers and othertimes not. All depended on him and his mood, but most will warm to going beak to nose, over time. But my other two won't do that. Smudge - a real biter - will allow me to kiss her chest feathers and Sparky, my little feral (still, a bit) will let me give hima kiss too and rub his beak with my nose, but don't think I will ever get any further than that. If Munchy will sit on your shoulder (and not nip your ear!) try sitting him there and walking around doing everyday things. Bluey and I had some great conversations while I did the ironing.
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May 16, 2024 17:46:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 9:51:51 GMT
Okay, Hezz. He'll happily kiss our noses, although sometimes the kisses I get are a bit rough. I wasn't trying to get him to want to be touched, just to see that my hand touching him isn't bad. He's been jumping on my shoulder this morning, actually. Sadly most of my everyday activities involve sitting down and won't stay on me in the living room if I move away from the cage, let alone sit down, because I end up lower than the cage. Luckily in the room where his cage is overnight and in the mornings his cage is lower down. I've been talking to him as he preened my hair and chewed holes in my shirt and he stayed on me as I walked into the kitchen. I have to be careful in my house because there's high furniture that he could fall behind. The cupboard in my room is fine because there's no room behind it, the cupboard in the room where his cage is has a gap underneath it so he can crawl out, as I discovered when he dropped behind it, and he's already landed on the welsh dresser in the hall without falling behind it. The living room is about the safest room. Overall though, he's too tied to his cage to stay sitting at the kitchen table with me or anything. I'll keep working at it. I managed to put him into his cage from my hand just now, which was good I was going to move on to not showing him a reward until after he gets on my hand, because he'll get on without a reward if my hand is close enough, but then I'm not sure whether to reward him whilst he's still on my hand or afterwards. I can't get both arms in the cage together, so I have to bring him to the bars. Hopefully in time he'll stop always trying to bypass my hand. And the first time he comes out of the cage I get him on my hand and let him walk up my arm. I'm starting to teach 'up' outside as well, although I might need to bring his gym in for that, unless he's happy to run to the edge of the cage and jump onto me when I say 'up' because he runs from the approaching hand that I can't flatten. He did get quite close to my hand when I had it flat on top of the cage earlier, and spring-boarded off it once when it was inside the cage. He'll happily take food from my palm without fear though, so it seems he has more of a desire for food than fear of my hand. I should work on that sometime too. Wow, this all takes so long. He might be stepping up consistently by the time I have to go away to Portugal, and then all my hard work will have been erased by the time I return, and then I'll be halfway there again and have to go away again and come home to a feral budgie... I shall have to train my boyfriend to train Munchy whilst I'm gone. ^^
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