Large Poops - for some time now

[homebird]

I know something is up with Rio. He is 5 and has always been a strong and healthy Budgie. This summer his poops have been getting bigger. At first I thought he was holding it in too much at night because when I greeted him in the morning he would wiggle his tail and then this large poop dropped out. Large as in about 4 to 6x's as big as before. Now I see these poops throughout the day. They aren't runny. Because the large poops are not normal - they stay together but are quite green - I suspect he has a liver condition. Is there any real cure for this?

He eats really well still [soaked grouts, seed, shows more interest in pellets & some fresh veg] and is flying about - but you all know they will hide illness.

An overview of this bird - he always had larger poops than our other birds but normal looking. This new look has been going on for the past month.

I know he should go to the Vet - however I wonder if they can help him [the last Vet visit I had was not helpful - for another bird - just stressful for bird and me]. He is friendly with me but catching him or examining him will be over the top stressful for him. He is a very 'wild' Budgie in many ways.

Thanks for any advice and help.

[Bird Junky]

Hi You could take a sample of poo to the Vet
for testing. Even he wouldn't diagnose from
just a poop description. Not enough info...B.J.

[stace]

As BJ said, some avian vets will do poop testing without the bird being there. I;m in Australia so I can tell you which ones, but mine has a system where you can post the poop in to him and then phone for the results.

It's not as good as a physical exam though, but good in emergencies, for remote bird owners or instead of follow-up visits when the bird's complaint is already known or suspected.

[Hezz]

You would really need a vet's diagnosis for a liver condition, but there is no harm in starting Rio on a liver detox-type diet. I did this for my budgie around the same age as Rio is now. Bluey also had a abdominal tumour, enlarged liver and kidneys. I know the vets were surprised he lasted as long as he did, so I take heart that maybe the detox diet helped him to some extent.

PS His symptoms also started as bigger than normal poops.

[homebird]

Thanks = the idea of taking the poo to the Vet is a great idea - I'll call tomorrow.

What is a Detox diet? = please direct me to the details. Thanks.

[Hezz]

Liver detox diet - you'll have to do some internet research for yourself but using those things that are detoxification properties, same as a human would use. Things like wheatgrass, milkthistle, aloe, dandelion etc.

[homebird]

I did the research and noted the thread here on bad poops - Stacey's photo ref. is just like Rio's. He has become quite the beaver over the past year. He may well have eaten too much fiber from the things he's eating and this has caused damage through fermentation and impacting. You should see my lampshade, the studio drapes and his perch.

I am checking out the Aloe Detox & am moving the lampshade in particular. I have given him lots of things to chew - bird friendly things but he still works on the drapes and the lamp.

Wish us well.

[missbrazilianxx]

Thats a shame. I wish I knew more about the birds liver functions, etc.
I will be praying for you guys. Best of luck, and please keep us all posted on
how he is doing !!

[stace]

Aug 29, 2012 13:09:16 GMT homebird said:

I did the research and noted the thread here on bad poops - Stacey's photo ref. is just like Rio's. He has become quite the beaver over the past year. He may well have eaten too much fiber from the things he's eating and this has caused damage through fermentation and impacting. You should see my lampshade, the studio drapes and his perch.

I am checking out the Aloe Detox & am moving the lampshade in particular. I have given him lots of things to chew - bird friendly things but he still works on the drapes and the lamp.

Wish us well.

If you've read through my thread, you'll see my initial concerns began with his larger than normal poop. It then began to also show a lot of excess liquid around it.

He then began to show intermittent signs of pain in his gut - leaning forward mostly and wincing every now and again.

At our first vet consult, his initial thoughts upon looking at him were either heavy metal poisoning or a blocked gizzard/gut. Which of these it was did not become clear until X-rays were done.

The poop/crop exams showed up infections caused by the rotting ball of junk stuck in his stomach.

[homebird]

Update; The Aloe seems to be helping him a lot. It has been 2 weeks of it every day in his soaked grouts and water. Both birds are getting it as they are together. Bow is looking good too

Here are Bow and Rio - sorry about the blur - Bow doesn't like the big scary new camera. Not sure why the images are so small ... I took them minutes ago.




Like Stacey had to deal with - It definitely has to do with Rio's need to chew everything. He got bad again the one day when my husband didn't cover the bedside lampshade. His crop was large as well. But after 2 days it was normal and he was back to eating and drinking like a regular Budgie. You should see our place right now - we have covers and 'scary' ribbons on everything he's been chewing. I bought him a 40pc bag of those finger toys - for him to chew + some fresh young willow.

Rio is thinner than he was. He has never been straining and there has been no blood. His tail is low but it isn't bobbing. He looks better and his energy is better too. When he isn't well he spends more time in the cage - like when he's molting. Right now he's flying into the sunroom and singing in the Mulberry tree.

His poops are much smaller and more Budgie like. Those large green masses are 1/2 to 1/3 less in size and not so green and lumpy. I assume the lumps are the culprit. The white and the overall shape [tight curl] is almost normal. We hope that we can post better info soon.

Thanks Stacey - I was looking for that thread where the poops where all posted and I couldn't find it again - but I did find your thread about Boo - I was amazed at your journey - it was outstanding.

The vet said any kind of fibre, whether in a perch or a toy or whatever, can cause a blockage - paper, sisal, cardboard, cotton, jute, hemp - all of them and more.

He said the only thing that is truly safe is natural branches and leaves for them to chew on.

blimey i always put news paper in the bottom of my breeding cages .....iv always done this to make the cleaning easyer cant say iv ever had a problem .........as yet....
but no fibers at all in there ...nor my flights.....i used to hang cuttle bone up with it till i found one of my 4 month old lutino cock birds hanging ....needless to say iv never used string in there ever again.......

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I thought I'd re-post your quote from your vet too

Here's this, from my vet on gizzard blockages:

Your bird has been diagnosed with a blocked gizzard.
This is a life threatening disease and your bird may need to stay in hospital until it starts eating. It may take as short as one day, or as long as three days to unblock the gizzard. When the blockage has been present for too long, or when excessive amounts of material are blocking the gizzard, it may be impossible to save your bird. Soft materials and plastic objects may be difficult to unblock as they become impacted and “cement” in the gizzard. Recent sand, wood or dirt blockages are more likely to be unblocked. We manage to save more than 90% of birds presented to us with a blocked gizzard or foreign body obstruction.

Foreign body obstructions occur mostly in perfectly healthy birds who are inquisitive and playful. The most common causes of foreign body obstructions are toweling, rope fibres, toys, paper, and plastics found within the birds play environment. Foreign bodies also occur after cold spells and in birds who have behavioural problems, such as boredom or sexual frustration. These birds like to chew on wood and tear up paper. Nutritional problems may also cause birds to chew on abnormal objects.


What are the signs and symptoms of a blocked gizzard?

The symptoms of a foreign body obstruction and a blocked gizzard are similar. The first signs are an increased thirst and fluffed up appearance. Birds will develop a stomach ache and will lean forward on the perch. Droppings will have no faecal component and may be watery and appear clear or white. Birds may vomit and stop eating. Symptoms of a blocked gizzard or foreign body obstruction appear suddenly, over a period of a day or two. It is important to recognize these symptoms early, so treatment can be implemented as early as possible. The likelihood of recovery is dramatically increased when the problem is identified and treated early. If left unattended for a period of time, the chances of recovery are slim.


How is it treated?

A blocked gizzard or foreign body obstruction must be treated as an emergency. Treatment starts by injecting a lubricating feed mix into the crop, using a crop needle. The birds must be hospitalized in a warmed cage and fed three times a day, in an effort to flush the obstruction through. A high energy formula is incorporated in the feed mix and is critical in re-establishing the sick bird's mineral and fluid levels.

At this time it may also be necessary to give anti-spasm injections, antibiotics or additional fluids. A culture of the droppings is taken to treat concurrent infections and help identify any underlying cause. The procedure of unblocking the gizzard with an injection into the crop may be stressful to critically ill birds and birds with a longstanding obstruction or low resilience. Unfortunately, shock and sudden death following this procedure is possible. We make every effort that this does not occur.

We can recognize when the blockage has been flushed through by the re-appearance of a fecal component (green) in the droppings. If no fecal component is seen after three days of treatment, the likelihood of recovery is poor. It may not be possible to clear longstanding obstructions. We will keep your bird hospitalized until a normal dropping has been passed.

Are there any long term problems?

Long term obstructions can harm the kidneys and liver and leave the bird susceptible to illness in the future.

Copyright © 2004 Rob Marshall, All Rights Reserved.

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Page 13 of your thread

Not sure where to start as it's rather technical, but I'll try to speak human, not vet.

The good news is that X-rays showed the enormous lump of rope fibres that was stuck in his stomach has all but gone. The bad news is that the problem has now moved down to his gizzard (the next bit in his intestinal tract)

There is also the chance that this episode has damaged his insides, though this could resolve itself. Only time will tell.

Because the gizzard is near to the kidney and liver, it's possible these organs are also being affected. The vet is unsure, but further culture tests done today may make this clearer. (results due tomorrow)

Poop tests done on the spot look pretty good, although Boo's poops still contain too much liquid. This is likely to continue for a while, until all remnants of the blockage disperse.

The green staining also is still there in his poop splats. We should know if this is because the infections caused by the block are still there, or possibly because his sick gizzard is affecting his liver and or kidneys. (Apparently the green tinge could also indicate excess bile production.)

For now, Boo is off his multiple meds, but the vet has given us a special immunity boosting diet, which I'll outline in another post. It may be of help to others.

In summary, the vet said we seem to be moving in the right direction, but there's a way to go yet. However, the culture test results may throw a spanner in the works - or not.

Just of interest, as we were leaving, he said Boo was a very unusual budgie. Apparently he's hyper aware of his surroundings, which the vet says he's never seen in a budgie before.

I don't really know what he meant by that.

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[stace]

If it is a blockage that is causing your bird's problems, you'll have to stop him eating any fibrous stuff.

Once Boo's innards were blocked, and ever since, ANYTHING he eats that is not food or leaves or bark causes another problem. While before, he could chew on paper or other shredding toys without any problem, now he cannot. These things would not normally cause a problem in a bird with a healthy working gut.

I had to throw out ALL his favourite shredding toys and anything with rope or fibre on it, even though these would normally be considered bird safe. (And he hated me for it!)

Stuff around the house had to be removed or covered or adapted so he couldn't chew on it.

This chew spot on the mirror was fixed by putting a simple cover on it, just on the bit he liked. He doesn't chew it anymore.



I put a shiny piece of paper on the lampshade so he can't land on it. Another problem fixed.



And he only gets leaves and branches and bits of eucalyptus bark to chew on his play gym.



Early on, when his blockage was life threatening, he had thrice daily crop washes directly into his gut, three times a week for a month. Progress to check to see if the blockage was shrinking was done by two types of x-ray each week. Also, he was feed barium meal once a week, both for one of the x-rays and to help push the blockage through his system.

During this time and for a while after, he was on a variety of meds to treat different infections arising because of the blockage. He had a yeast infection, three different types of bacterial infection, and later a nasty pseudomonas bug infection. These arose at different times along his blockage illness, and each was treated with a different drug. There were infections in both his crop and his gut.

Once the acute phase, or the emergency, was over - from memory about six weeks or two months later - he was put on a special diet. Which he still has to this day.

A few months back he managed to eat some paper napkin (and only a tiny bit too), and it started the cycle all over again, but this time not so bad as the first. Once again he had to go through a mini-form of the earlier treatment.

As you can imagine, this whole thing cost an absolute bomb in vet fees, and I can understand that it would be out of the reach of some people.

I would suggest:

1. Get rid of, or make safe, anything he's chewing on that he shouldn't.
2. If you notice his poop getting green, get it tested and treat for the specific type of infection he has. Lurid green poop means something weird is going on.
3. Twice a week, swap his fresh water for pure weak camomile tea (it's good for gut infections)
4. Find a mild water based crop cleaning agent. I use a product called KD powder. This also gets used in his water twice a week. Someone on here might know some product you can use there.

Hopefully, if your bird does have a blockage, it isn't the awful mess Boo has managed to make, and it will work its way through by itself without all the drama we had to go through.

However, you may still have to treat him for infections that arise along the way.

And just make sure he stops eating ****!