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Post by birdguhl on May 31, 2013 11:34:29 GMT
I'm sorry to be back with another sad story but please believe me it is helping us all for me to be able to spill on here - thanks again so much for your support and forbearance.
I am about to head back to the vet school to pick up some Metronidazole for Woody and Charlie. I took some dropping samples from Woody up there yesterday and this prospect was mooted. There were a lot of lively little organisms in there apparently but rather than jump straight to treatment we agreed to restart Woody's liver support medication (Hepatosyl) in case this was the issue.
I was in shutdown mode last night about this as was still processing Berry's diagnosis.
But today whilst sitting in my home office with the boys on the curtain rail and a protective bit of paper over my printer as it is at serious risk from above, they both produced some very abnormal-looking poos - some just thin liquid and some very wet light green/grey feces.
When I cleaned out Luee and Berry last night, I noticed grey droppings as well...
So, it will be a twice daily ordeal of catching and droppering Woody and Charlie for now and if that helps, Luee and Berry too.
I am hoping the coper in me will kick in soon but right now I just don't know if I can take much more of this.
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Post by Hezz on Jun 1, 2013 1:30:47 GMT
Sorry, birdguhl, I understand you are rather dizzy at the moment, but what has happened? Do Woody and Charlie have a bacterial infection? Or parasites? At least you have a good support system close-by; believe me that is worth its weight in gold. I know that isn't helping you much at the moment, just delivering more bad news. How does the Hepatosyl work? Do you have to keep this up on a time-on, time-off schedule? Or does that come later once his liver function comes back to normal levels? Are they going to culture the bacteria, so you know exactly what you are dealing with? Sorry for so many questions. Hasn't someone just finished being dosed with Baytril??? I am a little curious what it is they have as there are very few organisms that actually move around.
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Post by birdguhl on Jun 1, 2013 8:46:44 GMT
Thanks, Hezz. Just by way of clarification, when I said "helping us all" above I meant me and the buds - just in case that read weirdly. I'm pretty sure the vet said "protozoic (or protozoal) organisms" and that there were so many moving around that she couldn't see much else. She mentioned flagellates and ciliates too. I'm all in the dark about what kind of things these are, but I have found this www.netvet.co.uk/birds/protozoal.htm which I think is what I'm dealing with. The overwhelmed feeling swept over me again on reading about disinfecting and removing porous surfaces as pretty much all their perches are wooden. I don't know what I can do about this. Taking all the porous material out of their cages is a huge task. I suppose I do still have most of the plastic perches that came with them. Oh my goodness - I don't have the time in my life to do all this... Re medication, Woody and Charlie have "had" two doses of Metronidazole (aka Flagil - easier to type!) and I can now see that giving this is going to be very difficult. It is a thin runny liquid, not thick like Baytril. The taste is unpleasant and they have quickly learned how to eject it - they hold whatever makes it into their mouths and then flick it out as soon as they are able. The dose is 0.01ml so that is such a tiny dose it can easily get deposited onto their beaks and then I have to go back into the bottle as I don't want to overload the syringe to begin with. Although some of their droppings are still abnormal, some look reasonably okay. I don't know what this means. I am in danger of developing a preoccupation with budgie poo. When I got back with the meds yesterday they were both a bit lethargic so I decided to keep them in the cage both to conserve their energy and so that I could see what they were producing. And now that I have read how nasty these bugs are and how they can infect humans I am thinking I should be confining them so that I can control better where all this infected poo ends up... I am holding the prospect of having to do this for Luee and Berry at bay in my mind at the moment. But as Berry has PBFD he is even more vulnerable to nasty bugs. Their poo looks not too bad, but has shown signs of abnormality too. The infection aspect of this is hard to deal with. Now that BPFD is confirmed in Berry I have become aware of all the ways this virus spreads. Strictly speaking I should now never go near any other birds again to protect them from the virus particles I am inevitably carrying. In practice I will but it makes me think that if I had healthy birds and I knew all this I would definitely not want to go into a petshop where there are lots of birds as the soup of stuff that is likely to be around them doesn't bear thinking about. Sorry - this is getting too, too, too long but I am reminded about what BB said about washing stuff that comes from petshops. I say to everyone else who was naive like me WASH/TREAT WITH F10 STUFF THAT YOU GET FROM PETSHOPS Back to my birdies and on a more positive note, later in the evening yesterday they livened up and I let them out again and they had the most lively animated time - you would think they were 100% healthy! I gave them a little millet and I was heartened that they were still prepared to approach me for it. Charlie flew to my hand at one point and Woody looked like he was seriously considering doing the same. He even did a couple of circular flights around my hand to check it out.
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Post by birdguhl on Jun 1, 2013 10:27:51 GMT
Hezz, you had some other questions:
Baytril - yes Luee had a 14 day course of this for ?respiratory issue. The vet who signed him off said his breathing was a bit clicky but this could be an iodine issue. He has seemed okay since.
Hepatosyl - Woody was given this as the main treatment for his liver disease (along with general tonic HealX). When he was signed off vet Kevin said he should be okay without it as he was now eating pellets. But when I spoke to another vet Emma about these protozoa she said there was evidence of liver dysfunction so we decided to go back to Hepatosyl rather than straight to ABs. She said something a bit concerning about Flagil not being so great for budgies with liver disease. But Flagil is the one to deal with protozoa. I realize now that I forgot to ask vet Jo if he should remain on Hepatosyl during the Flagil treatment. In the effort to get the Flagil into them I have forgot about the other one. Oh dear...
Random thought: my birds have been seen by most of the exotics vets at the university practice. I have this fantasy that half of their meetings are now taken up with updating each other on goings on with my flock as they have all been very good at knowing what is going on when I speak to a different one!
PS If anyone is reading and managing to follow this story you are now in good shape to tackle 'War and Peace'!
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Post by tinksmum on Jun 1, 2013 11:01:41 GMT
Im so sorry to hear all this Birdguhl, i really hope you birds get well soon x
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Post by nat on Jun 1, 2013 15:27:34 GMT
I'm sorry you are having all this stress with the buds at the moment Birdgul I'm guessing the protozoa might be giardia? Do you use water dishes or hamster water bottles? as the use of bottles will help get rid of protozoa during treatment as any droppings in the water will reinfect birds. It might be worth asking the vet about Ronidazole for protozoa. I have used this in the past as a precationary treatment once or twice a year for all my birds and apparently does get rid of protozoa and other parasitic infections like thrichomoniasis. I had to buy this from vetafarm in Australia (treatment is called RONIVET S) but it is easier to administer as it gos into the drinking water, although I'm not sure what effect it may have on a bird with liver disease. I don't suppose any chemical medication would be good for a bird with organ disfunction :/ www.viovet.co.uk/Non-Prescription_Medicines-Dogs-Liver_and_Kidney-Hepatosyl/c119_13_134_193/category.htmlFrom the looks of this info the Hepatosyl should be fine to use with other meds as its non prescription
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Post by birdguhl on Jun 1, 2013 18:00:08 GMT
Thanks, Nat.
I'll need to look up giardia. And the water bottles - yes I do have some but I keep the water things up high to minimise the risk. Probably would be a good idea just now though - Woody has used one but I don't think Charlie has - will need to physically show him how it works.
Re the trich-type treatment you mentioned, I actually bought Tricho Plus ages back after reading on Barrie's site that 6 monthly use of this is a good idea. I had completely forgotten about that. And that's interesting about the hepatosyl - I have just put some on some soaked seed and he has hoovered it up.
Today the droppings look more normal, but Woody has appeared ill. He has spent most of the afternoon fluffed up and sleeping. Charlie is not as lively as normal either.
I have gone ballistic on the protozoa and their cages are now mega-hostile to them. Unfortunately not so nice for budgies either.
I have also decided to keep them in separate cages. Woody has been very irritable and they were getting scrappy over food so I think it was adding to stress.
Plus if they are separate then it is easier to see who is eating what and who is producing what. The vet said that a worrying side effect of Flagil is loss of appetite so I need to be monitoring that.
I also think that keeping them separate may lessen the chances of them reinfecting themselves or each other.
My current thought about why all this is happening is this: most budgies with severe liver disease like Woody's would just have died. By going to all this massive effort I have kept him alive but in a weakened state which has set the scene for more illness.
Although they haven't been really explicit about it both vets I have talked to about this recent episode have been very cautious about the Flagil. I think there is a chance Woody won't make it through this, and I have to do the best for Charlie as he was healthier to start with.
Earlier I was having one of those kind of laughs you have with friends when things are really sh*t. He said "Oh no - do you think the vets might think you have Munchausen's by Budgie Proxy?" I had already thought of that. I might be getting a visit from the RSPCA any time now...
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Post by mizloco on Jun 1, 2013 18:07:40 GMT
You are doing the very best you can with a series of events that you are powerless over. Your budgies have a very loving budgie mum who is trying her hardest to make them well and happy. Keep the faith it must be hard.
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Post by skysmum on Jun 1, 2013 19:36:57 GMT
Oh Birdguhl, its never ending for you isn't it , im so sorry. As you say in anyone else's unobservant hands Woody probably wouldn't have made it this far so well done to you for your hard work and perseverance. Ive no doubt the vets are learning lots from your buds as well. I must admit i am finding it quite hard to understand what is going on so can only offer an ear to listen and very much learn. You cant possibly do any more than you are doing, look at it this way, you will be very well read in the art of Budgie keeping after all this. Keep strong.
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Post by stace on Jun 1, 2013 22:41:45 GMT
When my bird fell very ill from a blocked stomach after eating rope, he was sick for several months. It caused a cascading series of problems which either followed each other, or appeared simultaneously.
The original problem was causing other health issues. He began picking up illnesses from his environment - ones that he would normally have been able to fight off or that would never have entered his system, had he been healthy. There are bugs and viruses all around us, but when healthy they do us no harm.
I think Buds ended up being on about four or five different meds - there were bacterial infections popping up in his gut and crop, as well as fungal infections, yeast infections, pseudemonas infections and liver problems.
I'd get one problem beat, then another would arise. It was very distressing.
I had to disinfect the entire house with F10SC. Everything he might touch, eat, play with, rest on, had to be disinfected and wiped down again after he'd been there. He even had to eat sterile food. I had to go way beyond the normal rules for cleanliness.
Part of the problem was that normal environmental bugs were now dangerous to his compromised system. But also, my avian vet was diligent in testing him each week, so it showed up exactly what bugs were beaten and which new ones were cropping up. Most people wouldn't test to this extent and hence wouldn't know that this cascading series of problems were going on.
I am certain my bird would have died without it.
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Post by Hezz on Jun 2, 2013 1:54:24 GMT
Metronidazole=Flagyl=Baytril All the same thing, just different brand names. And Nat may be right in guessing Woody has Giardia. Flagyl was the treatment of choice for Giardia a couple of years ago; I presume it still is. Don't forget to keep them toasty-warm. Their body temp is way higher than ours and they lose a lot of heat quickly being ill, and therefore a lot of energy is lost keeping themselves warm. Trichomonas and Giardia are both protozoan parasites and both are flagellates. Which just means that they move by means of a "tail". Ciliates have a series of little hairs all over them that beat in time that moves them around. Just so you know what they were talking about. I did find that the general view was Flagyl and impaired liver function was not a good mix, but couldn't find anything that talked about Ronadizole and liver functions. You are doing a great job of looking after these little guys of yours. I sincerely hope all your hard work pays off very, very soon. Chin up, girl. No one could have done any better. PS I guessed you meant helping you and your budgie household with your helping out statement. Sometimes airing things can make it all a little clearer. *Hugs* to you all.
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Post by birdguhl on Jun 2, 2013 11:19:14 GMT
Thanks, guys - I appreciate all the information and support. Stace - I am amazed at what you did for Buds.
I am plugging on with treatment and hygiene routines. I think I must be getting some Flagyl into them because a pattern has emerged whereby droppings look more normal in the hours following treatment then become more sick looking towards the time another dose is due.
Re antibiotics - I thought Flagyl was different in terms of the bugs it targets. I remember having some for a tooth absess years ago. Anyway, whatever - I just hope Woody can tolerate it for long enough to get on top of this.
Oh - I forgot (I don't know how after weekly hour-long round trips to the vet) that Woody has had six injections of doxycycline as well for some unspecified infection. So he is just three weeks off that before starting this.
How much can one put a bird through, I wonder? And if it is likely that after this it will be something else... It is a real question.
Luee and Berry continue to seem okay thankfully, but Berry is vulnerable +++ with the BPFD as well.
Increasing numbers of people close to me are asking - with real concern - how long I can go on doing all this with the effects it is having on my life (and it is). If I had a sick bird who was suffering and wasn't going to get better (such as one reads about on the forum quite frequently sadly) it would be clear what action was required. But this situation isn't as clearcut as that.
I am the sort of person who does everything and takes care of everyone else. Now there are four sick/vulnerable birds in the equation too! Ho hum.
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Post by tinksmum on Jun 2, 2013 11:24:54 GMT
Wish i could help or give advice, but as you know this is the 1st time im dealing with a sick bird so learning curve for me too, i really hope your babies get well soon, lots of love n hugs x
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Post by Captain Howdy on Jun 2, 2013 20:02:30 GMT
Oh - I forgot (I don't know how after weekly hour-long round trips to the vet) that Woody has had six injections of doxycycline as well for some unspecified infection. So he is just three weeks off that before starting this. I thought the Doxy was because he had Psittacosis?
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Post by birdguhl on Jun 2, 2013 21:57:15 GMT
Hmmm - as I recall he tested negative for psittacosis chlamydophyla - this test was done right at the beginning of the process which led to diagnosis of liver disease - as did the others. Of course this is not an absolute reliable result (altho with the others I collected about 9 consecutive days' of droppings). I think the vets didn't really know what they were treating with the Doxy but it seemed to work.
So he has had Baytril, Doxy and now Flagyl (and Hepatosyl for liver disease). I am going to phone the vet tomorrow as I think his appetite is a bit off. He has long periods (a few hours) of being inert and ill-looking in the afternoon and then perks up a bit in the evening. I need to find out if it is alright to continue the flagyl with these signs.
They are overdue their evening dose as they took to the curtain rail and have only just come down to feed. I am not 100% sure I'll manage to shut them in as they are now very wary of me indeed. It is awful chasing them around and then forcing in the stuff.
Charlie is holding up better. Luee and Berry seem okay too. Another positive thing is that there has been less abnormal poo today, and over the last couple of days not nearly as much of the very stubborn substance in the dropping, which I think is the 'crust' the protozoa create in order to survive for longer outside the body.
HOwever, I am feeling that I need to push the vet on the bigger picture with all this. We really have to discussion about how likely it is that we are just treating whatever is currently going on (and with considerable risk given the liver disease) and setting him up for another type of problem.
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