Jan 3, 2014 12:36:47 GMT
j1a1c1k
Brand New Budgie
Posts: 8
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Post by j1a1c1k on Jan 3, 2014 13:16:00 GMT
Hi everyone, I'm new to the forums and hopefully someone can give me some advice. I have a 3-4 year old budgie who unfortunately is constantly plagued with bad health. He has a couple of months healthy and then always seems to return to the vets. His brother who is the same age has never had any health problems whatsoever. I've put the detailed story below for those interested why but basically I think my budgie has ongoing liver problems and i'm now trying to change his diet to improve his general health. I've also called the vet to see if we can treat him with anything to alleviate his current symptoms. Waiting on a callback from the vet at the moment. My questions are: (sorry if this should be in diet and not health but I felt health was more relevant) 1) Many people have suggested Milk Thistle, he is a very fussy eater so adding to water or even syringing into mouth with water daily to ensure intake is probably the best option for me. Could people advise where they buy alcohol-free tincture from and what daily dosage they give to a budgie? 2) People seem to advise introducing Harrisons pellets however others say a seed mix is fine. What are peoples advice or should I use a mixture of Harrisons pellets and there current mix? 3) Could people advise which Harrisons mix to get as i'm a little overwhelmed by the range of products. 4) Can anyone advise where to get milk thistle seeds from to add to their diet and how many should be added daily? Anyway, here's the long story for those interested. There doesn't seem to be any certified Avian vets nearby so he goes to a normal vets who do treat birds and generally they've been helpful with advice. Unfortunately, he's frequently been prescribed Baytril when he goes there which after research I see is not really a 'specific' treatment, more of a net to try and catch everything and if it doesn't catch it try something else. Fortunately the Baytril has always cleared anything up at least for a few months. In his second year with us he developed a brown overgrowth on his cere that just got bigger and bigger with time. He got treated with anti-mite drops and this cleared it up the first time, but then it came back. We tried anti-mite a few more times and it really had no effect on the overgrowth so we could only assume it wasn't from mites. We then tried scaly face and leg lotion on it for several months and slowly but surely the growth has now gone. He has a lovely blue cere and over the past 6-8 months there has been absolutely no return of the brown growth. Sadly now 6-8 months on from thinking we had everything sorted as we had a good spell of health and cleared up the growth, he's taken a turn for the worse. The first time about 4 months ago was that his flight got very bad, he became very clumsy and had to frequently land on the floor before attempting to get back to his cage via flight. We spoke to the vets and again they said it could be infection, prescribed Baytril and he started to improve a little bit, his flight got less clumsy and he seemed to be on an upwards curve. Unfortunately the upwards curve became a downward one again He slowly stopped flying at all and now just spends his time in his cage and on top of it. He's also now started perching much lower down his cage rather than high up. This bad health got worse over christmas and he started fluffing up and shaking during quite a period of moulting. As we couldn't get him to the vets over christmas we gave him plenty of warmth and ensured he had Guardian Angel added to his seed everyday. This has certainly helped so far and he's day by day improved so that he's now playing more, moving around his cage and coming out of his cage aswell (unfortunately still no flight). His vent has also started to get the odd bit of poo stuck to it recently and I think is lacking feathers now around the vent, as a result he scratches it and pecks at it. Finally his nails also grow quite a lot so we have to clip them (his brothers don't do this). He's still eating a lot now and I mean a lot, to the point I can hear him eating at night when he should be sleeping. Water consumption has also increased but it's not consistent. Some days he'll drink an awful lot and others the amount I would expect. Summary of symptoms: Eating a lot Drinking a lot Excessive Nail Growth Frequent Period of Bad Health Lack of Flight Perching Low I have to be honest and I think i've been too reliant on the vet and I now feel maybe this is all related to his diet and possibly has liver problems. So i've spent some time researching what I can do to try and recover him from his current state of health. It's all just a little confusing as his brother who has the exact same diet and cage has never had a problem Any advice is appreciated. Regards, Jack
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Post by sweetpea on Jan 3, 2014 14:08:41 GMT
Hello there. My Thomas has recently been diagnosed with an enlarged/fatty liver: budgerigarsforum.proboards.com/thread/7467/rayIt was confirmed by x-ray. The liver extends downwards, explaining the swollen vent area but it also extends upwards into his air sac area which explains why he was getting out of breath so easily. You say your bird has stopped flying - would this be due to breathing problems?? My Thomas is currently on milk thistle one day, then L-Carnitine the next day. Dosage (for both) 2 drops in 50ml of water. Since starting on this regime, Thomas has perked up considerably. He still has up & down days but before it was just down days. What are your birds poops like - this is also a good indicator for a liver problem. Are the whites yellow at all?? He is lucky to have you looking out for him.
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Post by birdguhl on Jan 3, 2014 14:51:27 GMT
Hi j1a1c1k and welcome to the forum. Sorry you're having problems with your budgie. You've been doing great for him so far. I have a budgie with fatty liver disease (at least used to) and I give all of mine Harrison Super Fine High Potency as their main diet, supplemented with a small amount of germinated seed and lots of fruit, veg and herbs. They are all very well on this. Have a look at the information videos here: www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com/education/harrisons-videos/You can get Harrisons from Northern Parrots or Scarletts Parrot Essentials
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Jan 3, 2014 12:36:47 GMT
j1a1c1k
Brand New Budgie
Posts: 8
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Post by j1a1c1k on Jan 3, 2014 16:07:49 GMT
Hi Birdguhl and Sweetpea, Thanks so much for your re-assuring words. I was starting to feel like i've neglected him but I always take him to the vets when necessary, it's just they are reluctant to do any x-rays or anything due to the 'stress' it would cause him. Yes his poor flight basically was as a result of him getting tired and breathing heavily wherever he landed. I'm going to discuss my suspicions of a fatty liver with the vet - it does worry me slightly that they've never picked up on it being that in the past. His droppings are very mixed to be honest, just had a look though and they appear to be white in general but can get very very loose and almost clear at times. In terms of the L-Carnitine and Milk Thistle extract, did your vet prescribe this or did you buy it from somewhere yourself? If your vet didn't prescribe it, would you please be able to let me know where I could get the same product as you? I just worry that i'll get the wrong product, for example with milk thistle I have heard the ones extracted using alcohol are unsuitable. Finally, if I was adding the L-Carnitine and Milk Thistle to the water, would that be an issue with his companion drinking it? Or would it make sense to give the dose directly to him via syringe (no needle of course as i've had to do with Baytril before. Thank you so much for your help, it is massively appreciated.
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Post by sweetpea on Jan 3, 2014 16:35:34 GMT
Hi j1a1ck. It took a few weeks for my vet to confirm Thomas's problem & the x-ray was indeed the last resort. We were distracted by bacteria in his poop, that obviously was the secondary problem. It is good that you plan to discuss your suspicions with your vet as it helps to have the vet behind you & on your side, as it were... Yes, my vet prescribed milk thistle (that I already had) & L-Carnitine, but because of the difficulties getting hold of the L-C I bought that myself, after getting the vet's okay. I am assuming you are in the UK.... I got the L-Carnitine from Holland & Barrett: www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/product_detail.asp?pid=568&cpid=1990It is the 500mg strength liquid version. I can't remember where I got the milk thistle from, but it's this one: www.amazon.co.uk/Natures-Answer-Milk-Thistle-Seed/dp/B001E0OYJ8/ref=sr_1_1?s=drugstore&ie=UTF8&qid=1388767048&sr=1-1&keywords=nature%27s+answer+milk+thistleThe milk thistle & L-C are both natural products & are okay for all buds, ill or not to take. Also, because they are natural, it may take awhile to take effect. Do talk to your vet about this. I am sure I drove my vet mad in the end, constantly ringing up, but we finally got there!
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Jan 3, 2014 12:36:47 GMT
j1a1c1k
Brand New Budgie
Posts: 8
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Post by j1a1c1k on Jan 3, 2014 16:54:47 GMT
Thanks so much Sweetpea, i'm also glad to see your Thomas shows signs of improvement. The vet called and said he's not concerned about seeing him - basically he's advising a big diet change because although I have a mix of food, he may be fixating on seeds and not eating the other stuff. I mentioned Milk Thistle and L-Carnitine but he didn't really acknowledge me saying it, he just said the guardian angel should serve the same purpose, but looking at the ingredients that doesn't entirely convince me. I'm thinking of changing there diet to introduce more veg and introduce the Harrisons high potency bird food aswell. In addition i'm definitely going to try the Milk Thistle aswell to help his liver. Unfortunately although my vets are useful, I don't have 100% confidence in how broad their avian knowledge is. Do you think it's also worth using the L-Carnitine or shall I try the diet change and milk thistle and see how it goes first? How quickly did you start to see improvements in Thomas after you started L-Carnitine and Milk Thistle? (I'm assuming there wasn't anything else prescribed in addition to these) I apologise for asking so many questions, appreciate your not a vet, but you've clearly been through a very similar situation and as you say asked all the questions you need to. Just in your case your vet seems to know a few more answers than mine does Thank you so so much for the links and all the advice, I was starting to feel very lost and worried.
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Oct 7, 2011 16:57:09 GMT
columbo
Brand New Budgie
Posts: 53
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Post by columbo on Jan 3, 2014 20:03:34 GMT
Hi and welcome!
I too have a bird with liver problems and like you was in and out of the vets every few months. The last time it flared up the vet said that feeding an all seed diet is like humans eating mcdonalds every day! He also told me that it is in certain birds genes to have a liver defect. I have been feeding columbo nutri berries (which I think are like harrisons). I crumble these and put a tiny bit of seed in too. I only feed him 4 of the clusters and the tiny bit of seed with lots of veggies. Fine beans(split)broccoli,spinach leaves,kale. The change in his energy levels has been amazing. He flies so much more and is more alert. He was also quite fat before and now is a lot slimmer! I wish you lots of luck with your bird and hope he responds to the diet change well.
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Post by birdguhl on Jan 3, 2014 21:04:39 GMT
My vet gave me Hepatosyl Plus for Woody (the bud with the liver disease). It is available without prescription. i think it has milk thistle among other things in it. It doesn't smell very nice - does milk thistle smell a little unpleasant? Not that Woody seemed to mind, he hoovered it (powder) up on his germinated seeds quite happily. It would be more difficult to put on dry food.
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Post by mizloco on Jan 3, 2014 21:21:00 GMT
Welcome to the forum and you will get helpful advice on here but I'm afraid I have no idea what you need to do.
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Jan 3, 2014 12:36:47 GMT
j1a1c1k
Brand New Budgie
Posts: 8
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Post by j1a1c1k on Jan 3, 2014 23:54:07 GMT
Thank you everyone for your advice. I now have Harrisons on order and the alcohol free milk thistle extract. Already started tonight with the diet change and introducing fruit and veg. I'll try my best to post an update on how it goes - hopefully i'll have some positive news in the coming weeks! Fingers crossed. Hi and welcome! I too have a bird with liver problems and like you was in and out of the vets every few months. The last time it flared up the vet said that feeding an all seed diet is like humans eating mcdonalds every day! He also told me that it is in certain birds genes to have a liver defect. I have been feeding columbo nutri berries (which I think are like harrisons). I crumble these and put a tiny bit of seed in too. I only feed him 4 of the clusters and the tiny bit of seed with lots of veggies. Fine beans(split)broccoli,spinach leaves,kale. The change in his energy levels has been amazing. He flies so much more and is more alert. He was also quite fat before and now is a lot slimmer! I wish you lots of luck with your bird and hope he responds to the diet change well. Thanks for your words of advice and telling me of your experience of a similar situation. My vet also said a similar thing to me today; if he exclusively eats seeds then it's like a human eating peanuts all the time, it just isn't good. He also said something that I hadn't picked up on.. As I give them a seed, pellet and biscuit mix it is possible he's being stubborn and just eating the seed. Which makes sense because even if there's fresh food in the feeder, he'll soon go on the bottom of the cage picking up seed that's dropped. I think it's going to be a long road ahead changing his diet, but hopefully i've spotted the problem in time and we'll get there in the end. I've started tonight by covering his seed mix in fruit and veg for a few hours so to get to the seed he has to go through the healthy stuff, also ordered some Harrisons which will arrive Tuesday - as stubborn as he is I will make sure he eats healthy and stops snacking on the 'fast food'! So glad to hear that your bird managed to recover from it though, it is truly reassuring. Thanks for mentioning the Hepatosyl Plus product. It looks very similar - it sounds like again it's a combination of suplements to help liver function in general. I'll see how the diet change, veg introduction and milk thistle goes. If that fails i'll certainly keep that one in mind. I have heard the taste of milk thistle isn't nice for budgies so I imagine it will smell nasty too - guess i'll find out next week when it arrives Thanks for the welcome! No problem whatsoever, everyone so far has been so kind and helpful. I was worried that people would see me as someone who has neglected my birds because I haven't monitored their diet enough. Fortunately everyone has been so welcoming and given me some fantastic advice, I just hope I can now use that advice and help my little budgie back to his normal flying self this year.
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Post by Hezz on Jan 4, 2014 0:40:38 GMT
Hi Jack, while I am coming into this discussion late, I can assure you that the advice from Sweetpea and birdguhl, as well as Columbo is very pertinent as all have gone through the same thing. I have lost a budgie from a tumour but he also had an enlarged liver, side effect of the tumour, and gave him a diet very similar to what the others are recommending. While this didn't cure the tumour, it did prolong his quality of life - vets were surprised at how long he continued to enjoy life.
It does sound very much like a fatty/enlarged liver is the bird's problem. I got my milk thistle drops from the US; no one in Australia seems to stock it, and you are right in looking for alcohol free drops. The seeds are way too hard for a budgie to get through, so if you have any luck with these (should be able to find them in a health food store) you will have to crack the seeds for him.
Just checking where you are from, UK? So the middle of winter for you. Once spring, summer comes around you can get out and pick seeding grass for him and use these as a big part of his diet. I remove the seed from the cage for most of the day and the birds have gone back to their more natural diet of seeding grasses. The more fruits and veggies you can get them eating the better. Also with winter limiting natural grasses, you can grab a handful of the birds' seed and throw these into a pot of potting soil and feed these to them once they have sprouted. The sprouting process requires the seed to use up its fat stores, so sprouts are a low fat alternative you may be able to grow all year round.
Other things good for fatty livers are dandelions - all parts of the plant, any type of thistle, and aloe vera. You probably can find different types of liver detox's in your health food store for humans; a splash of these into the birds' water is good as well.
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Post by ffiscool on Jan 5, 2014 0:19:46 GMT
Just reading this, I wonder if this Baileys problems. I have ordered milk thistle today and guardian angel. Can vets only tell from X-ray?
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Post by birdguhl on Jan 5, 2014 0:35:05 GMT
I think an x-ray and blood analysis is definitive for fatty liver disease, but yellow droppings, breathing stress (from enlarged liver encroaching on thoracic cavity) and perhaps a few other things are suggestive.
But more to the point, ff, are you on a late night surfing the web reading up on all sorts of budgie symptoms mission, by any chance? If you are, can I gently suggest that you don't at this point as you are only likely to get more and more worried. It sounds as if he is doing okay, biting you etc.
zzzzing for you both is recommended now! x
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Jan 3, 2014 12:36:47 GMT
j1a1c1k
Brand New Budgie
Posts: 8
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Post by j1a1c1k on Jan 5, 2014 12:42:10 GMT
Well, without counting my budgies before they've hatched.. The news so far is really promising. Star (the budgie ) has taken to veg and fruit really well, in fact even when there's seed in the cage he's opting to consume all the fruit and veg he can. So far he's eating oranges, broccoli and carrots. To encourage him to eat them I do crumble a small amount of millet in and will reduce this over time. Going to get some turnips and kiwi today as-well to try him on and give him some variety. He is already showing much better health than before, he's gone back to chirping in the day which he'd stopped doing. He's gone from perching on the lowest bar in the cage to the highest, he appears to be sleeping through the night without eating and he's started play fighting with his brother again. It's a long road ahead and we're only 2 days into the diet change and haven't got the Harrisons mix yet, but fingers crossed what i've seen so far are really good signs! Thank you everyone so much for your advice, it really seems to be helping Star get better! HezzYes I am from the UK. Will definitely take your advice and throw some seeds into a pot for later in the year. I managed to find Milk Thistle Extract from the information Sweetpea gave me. It was available on ebay and amazon as Nature's Answer Milk Thistle Seed (Alcohol Free). ffiscoolI have to emphasize this liver problem hasn't been diagnosed by the vet, he's had a long run of illnesses over the past couple of years requiring regular antibiotic prescriptions. What I was concerned is that the vet even with the history of him have never seemed to pick up on there possibly being an underlying cause to the problem. A diet change has been suggested once but with no real explanation of why and how to do that. I have contacted my vet about the current situation and he's happy for us just to try and change his diet to less seed and keep giving him guardian angel to ensure he's getting vitamins and pro-biotics. He didn't really acknowledge the use of milk thistle extract and instead just said the guardian angel and diet change should be enough, if it isn't lets book an appointment down the line... However, as so many people have advised it i'm going to give it him anyway and see how it goes on this occasion.
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Post by ffiscool on Jan 5, 2014 12:49:04 GMT
Lol. No I was only reading this and symptoms seemed similar. Bailey wasn't surfing with me, he was in bed. I am awful for anything at all that comes to my mind, seems to be very late at night.
I hope the diet and milk thistle sorts you out, sounds promising these changes will
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